Patty Kikos interviews James Fenech who shares his journey of choosing to study psychology after discovering that his original engineering choice wasn’t inspiring him. James became a disability support worker and then a young carer coordinator who now has a passion for facilitating men’s groups and workshops. GUEST: James Fenech - https://www.carergateway.gov.au/ SOCIAL MEDIA: Follow Patty on Instagram Follow The Benevolent Society on Instagram Follow Carer Gateway on Facebook Follow The Benevolent Society on Facebook CREDITS: Host – Patty Kikos Producers – Patty Kikos and John Hresc Sound Engineer – John Hresc GET IN TOUCH: Carer Gateway is proud to offer emotional and practical services and support for carers with the aim of making your life easier. You can call us on 1800 422 737 to find out more about peer support groups, counselling, coaching, online skills courses, tailored support packages, emergency respite, other government supports, as well as tips and information, or visit our online home at www.carergateway.gov.au Got some questions or thoughts for Patty or the team? Email us at cgconnections@benevolent.org.au and put ‘Attention Patty’ in the subject line. ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: The Benevolent Society acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Patty Kikos interviews James Fenech who shares his journey of choosing to study psychology after discovering that his original engineering choice wasn’t inspiring him. James became a disability support worker and then a young carer coordinator who now has a passion for facilitating men’s groups and workshops.
GUEST:
James Fenech - https://www.carergateway.gov.au/
SOCIAL MEDIA:
Follow Patty on Instagram
Follow The Benevolent Society on Instagram
Follow Carer Gateway on Facebook
Follow The Benevolent Society on Facebook
CREDITS:
Host – Patty Kikos
Producers – Patty Kikos and John Hresc
Sound Engineer – John Hresc
GET IN TOUCH:
Carer Gateway is proud to offer emotional and practical services and support for carers with the aim of making your life easier.
You can call us on 1800 422 737 to find out more about peer support groups, counselling, coaching, online skills courses, tailored support packages, emergency respite, other government supports, as well as tips and information, or visit our online home at www.carergateway.gov.au
Got some questions or thoughts for Patty or the team? Email us at cgconnections@benevolent.org.au and put ‘Attention Patty’ in the subject line.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS:
The Benevolent Society acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
James
And it's funny looking back at watching the way things do evolve and seeing that natural evolution in my role. And it's been a journey as a support worker, of course I learned the importance of providing opportunities for socialisation and support, which has given me that invaluable experience as a young career coordinator where I've been able to continue to facilitate outings and support for young carers.
Which then sort of snowballed into the the men's group and recognising that there is a need for organising men's groups, which has evolved to include both online and face to face components. So, these groups provide a safe and comfortable space for men to connect and discuss their experiences, challenges and caregiving strategies with one another.
Patty
And so, you have a combination of both online and in person activities, is that right?
James
Yeah, we do definitely for the men's group, we've run cooking classes, we've run overnight workshops. We went to Ridges in Cronulla and ran an overnight workshop back in June, and we were we were able to hold that space for 20 men.
We ran a bunch of workshops as well that focused on emotional support and all sorts of peer support activities.
Patty
What was the biggest feedback that you got from that event?
James
Look, everyone loved it. I would say probably the biggest feedback was how good the food was.
---
Billy:
From the Carer Gateway at the Benevolent Society, we welcome you to, Carer Conversations with your host Patty Kikos.
The Care Gateway is the Australian Government national care hub and provides reliable services, support and advice especially for carers.
This podcast is where we share interviews with guests that have specialized knowledge to help support carers to look after their emotional, mental and physical well-being.
We are recording on Aboriginal country, on lands which were never ceded. We acknowledge the traditional custodians and cultural knowledge holders of these lands and waters. We pay our respects to Aboriginal elders, past and present.
Always was, always will be.
---
Greetings my fabulous listeners. When it comes to the caring role, is it something that many associate with the female gender? A little over 9%of all Australian men identify as carers, and while men represent just 28% of primary carers they are just as likely as women to identify as non-primary carers.
So, are there enough support groups for men? I mean after having a baby, your midwife will share details of mother’s groups that are local to you, because initially, it’s a woman that usually looks after a newborn.
But the caring role is a little different. From young adolescent men who need to pitch in and help their single parent, or provide support to their sibling with special needs, care for a grandparent or a friend or help mum to care for dad or vice versa.
The bottom line is that anyone can be a carer and male carers are proud of what they do and about having the carer responsibility, and from what I hear, they’re also very good at it.
Today, we chat to James Fenech, who works as a client support partner and young carer co Ordinator at the CG. More recently, James has been involved in organising and running men’s support groups, courses and overnight workshops.
James has a degree in psychology, and he’s worked as a disability support worker. He loves to surf, rock climb, and spending time with both his dash hounds.
James you’re the middle child in your family, and ‘Middle Child Syndrome’ is the idea that the middle children of a family, those born in between siblings, are treated or seen differently by their parents from the rest of their siblings. What’s your experience of this?
James
Hey, Patty, I think overall it's been a pretty positive experience. I've tried my best to be a good role model towards my younger brother and I've always looked up to my sister and with how much of a positive and dedicated person that she is.
My parents did a really good job, I think treating us all equally, which dispels that stereotype of middle child neglect.
Although I will say my older sister is probably the favourite, if only slightly. 😉
Patty
She's also the only girl that's true, so that might be a default mechanism.
James
That is true.
Patty
Now you chose to study psychology for 3 years. What was the main reason that inspired you to pursue this study in particular?
James
I've always been really interested in understanding human behavior and cognition. Why people are the way that they are, what causes it, and then in turn, how we can help them. My mum's influence as well as a psychologist also played a role in my choice, and I really just believe that helping others is so fulfilling and gives me a purpose.
Patty
So, your mum has a private practice as a psychologist?
James
Not a private practice. No, she does online phone counselling and she also works at a mental health hospital.
Patty
I see. Do you feel that you're officially using your degree in your work?
James
I think overall, yeah. In my work, it's really important to ask appropriate questions at the right time, and to pick up on cues to gauge people's comfort levels, clarifying what a carer might be saying to me, and overall, just facilitating that mutual understanding with people.
Patty
Yeah, I can understand that. And much like your mum, sometimes a lot of your work and your conversations are over the phone, so you don't get to see the physical nuance of someone's face, you have to really pick up on the subtle cues, don't you?
James
That's right, definitely and I think a lot of it also just comes with life experience. So, it's hard to say how much of it is directly related to studies and how much of it you just sort of learn as you go.
Patty
You became a disability support worker after you finished uni and you did this for about 18 months. So you actually have experience as a paid carer, don't you?
James
I do, yeah. So, I worked as a disability support worker for 18 months after completing my degree. During that time I worked for a non for profit organisation. We supported NDIS participants with a focus on children and young people.
So, these participants had disabilities such as autism, down syndrome or acquired brain injuries. And what we basically do is take the young participants out on the day to facilitate socialization and also participation in after school or weekend activities. We also ran employment support for participants who had recently left school and we'd go away on camps and have all sorts of great fun.
Patty
What was the most challenging aspect of that role for you?
James
I think for me, and I think actually for everyone really was just that constant need to be vigilant and attentive at all times. So we always had to be so switched on and actively engaged, especially when you're working with young people and there are safety concerns at all times. And that can be just so both mentally and physically exhausting.
Patty
Because it’s not just vigilance, is it? It's hypervigilance and that hyper awareness of what's going on in the environment and for the individual.
James
Yeah. And especially when the individuals all have their own very specific needs, things that they do like things that they don't like, whether it's you know, they might not get along with each other particularly well or certain environmental factors. So, there was just rarely an opportunity to sort of turn a blind eye to things.
Patty
Yeah, of course.
James
And the wellbeing of the individuals that we were looking after.
Patty
How long was each shift for you?
James
The after-school activities would be around 5 hours long. On a weekend we might do a full day out and during the school holidays it would. It would be a full day virtually.
Patty
Yeah, that's a long time.
James
We used to debrief, though after every shift and that was really nice. We'd sort of talk about what worked and what didn't work, how we could improve, and that that was really helpful for everyone.
Patty
What did you love the most?
James
Ohh, I would say having the ability to make the young people laugh, smile and just have a good time, and seeing their happiness and being able to facilitate such a positive experience was incredibly rewarding.
Patty
It's interesting because it kind of led you into your other role as a young carer coordinator, I mean you organised events, you went away on weekends and it's something that you do as a young career coordinator. In your current role, did you find that more young men were drawn to you more than young women were in peer support activities?
James
I think to a degree, yeah, there, there was a natural affinity with the younger males who maybe were drawn to me because of my gender. And in in peer support activities I do notice that I that the young guys are more inclined to seek my guidance or engage in discussions being the only male young carer coordinator, although of course that being said, the activities that we run are super inclusive and supportive for everyone, regardless of their gender.
Patty
I mean this also emphasises that representation really matters. So, when we're young and impressionable, it's important that we're able to relate to but also connect with people that we aspire to be like or recognise that they have similarities to us.
James
Definitely, I think that representation matters a lot, especially during our formative years. It's crucial for young individuals that they're able to relate and connect with people that they aspire to be like.
So in professions where genders or groups are traditionally underrepresented, such as men in caregiving roles, diversity is even more vital, I would say, and it sort of reminds me of when I was studying psychology, I was probably 1 of only 10 guys in the entire cohort.
Patty
Of how many people?
James
Of like maybe 200! Yeah, it's pretty wild, honestly. And then in comparison, I did a semester of engineering, and it was obviously the complete opposite where there were just virtually no girls, and it was a total male dominated industry.
Patty
Why do you think that's the case?
James
Truthfully, I don't know. I think maybe men are attracted to more high paying roles. Men could be sort of turned off by the idea of entering a traditionally female career pathway.
I think it maybe also depends on what we learn and what we engage with when we're very young, I think there are some gender imbalances on how we're educated and treated as children. You know, boys tend to be taught how to build things or fix things, so, I suppose that might maybe influence us later on down the track.
Patty
You made a little interesting comment, and I don't want to let it go. Tell me about your... Was it a semester of studying engineering?
James
Yeah, so basically I did all engineering and physics and difficult math subjects in high school, thinking that that I was set to become an engineer.
Patty
So you had that side of the brain activated, which seems to be dormant for me personally. Lots of respect to you James.
James
Well, look in hindsight, maybe it wasn't that active because I very quickly realised once I got to university, actually, no, I don't want to do this at all, and I found it really difficult. But also, I just wasn't really applying myself.
Patty
Is it because you just weren't enjoying it?
James
Yeah, I wasn't enjoying it. I think just at the time as well, I maybe wasn't ready for university. I needed maybe a little bit of time off and that's what ended up doing.
Patty
So, you had a semester where you started engineering, and decided that this was not for you, and then took the next six months off?
James
Exactly. I took the next 6months. Yeah, that's right. And so then, yeah. And then that gave me a lot of time to think about what I wanted to during that time.
Patty
So you had a gap year?
James
Yeah, I did. I just worked in retail, saved up a bit of money. And then yeah, that following year decided I want to do psychology. I'd looked into it and I'd read a lot about it, obviously talked to mum a lot about it. And that's sort of where that began.
Patty
There appears to be an organic evolution to your roles. So, from organising outings with participants as a disability support worker, to then becoming a young carer coordinator and organising outings for young carers, and then from being the only male care worker that young male carers could chat with, to now organising men's groups for our male carers. There appears to be a natural evolution for you. Don't you think?
James
I do. Yeah. And it's funny looking back at watching the way things do evolve and seeing that natural evolution in my role. And it's been a journey as a support worker, of course I learned the importance of providing opportunities for socialisation and support, which has given me that invaluable experience as a young career coordinator where I've been able to continue to facilitate outings and support for young carers.
Which then sort of snowballed into the the men's group and recognising that there is a need for organising men's groups, which has evolved to include both online and face to face components. So, these groups provide a safe and comfortable space for men to connect and discuss their experiences, challenges and caregiving strategies with one another.
Patty
And so, you have a combination of both online and in person activities, is that right?
James
Yeah, we do definitely for the men's group, we've run cooking classes, we've run overnight workshops. We went to Ridges in Cronulla and ran an overnight workshop back in June, and we were we were able to hold that space for 20 men.
We ran a bunch of workshops as well that focused on emotional support and all sorts of peer support activities.
Patty
What was the biggest feedback that you got from that event?
James
Look, everyone loved it. I would say probably the biggest feedback was how good the food was. But look, it is important. It is something we do consider when we're planning anything.
Patty
That's important for any gender. {both laugh}
James
But they we got a lot of amazing feedback and that's why we're going to continue to run overnight workshops for the men's group, but particularly just the the fact that the men were able to meet one another in a very safe and supportive environment.
There was no stress, no sort of extra responsibilities when we can organise as much of the of the workshop as possible, so that the carer that all they have to do is really show up and participate. That's when we get a lot of really good feedback.
Patty
Yeah. So, the space is held because everything's been done, everything's been considered.
James
Yeah, that's right. And I think it's important to engage in some kind of physical activity or even just using your hands, which to me acts like a bit of a social lubricant.
It’s easier to open up and share thoughts and feelings with one another. At least that works well for me. That's how I sort of tend to open up when I might be busy doing something rather than just sort of sitting down face to face with someone.
Patty
That's actually interesting. I might unpack that a little bit more with you a little later on. Do you have any future plans for the men's groups, or are you hoping to naturally evolve them as per what participants need?
James
Yeah, I think it's good to be flexible with a group like this. It will evolve naturally as it already has, but I definitely do encourage input from participants based on their needs and preferences. And so, yeah, regular feedback from the guys in the men's group is super important in shaping these initiatives.
Patty
Why do you think men's groups are so important? I mean we spoke a little bit about that earlier about mums groups and how supportive they are for that context of when a woman's just had a baby, her world's been turned upside down. But why men's groups?
James
I think they are so essential. Men's groups, they address the historical stigmas that maybe in the past discouraged men from seeking support, and they challenge those stereotypes about masculinity as a whole.
These groups really, in essence, just provide a safe space for men to connect with others in a similar situation. They can help to combat loneliness, and really, it's just about encouraging open communication with one another.
Patty
Earlier you mentioned that when men actually you gave yourself as an example when you said when I'm doing something like fiddling with my hands and I'm relaxed, I'm more akin to opening up. Do you think that's the case with men's groups as well?
James
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. And I for sure noticed that when we did run a cooking class earlier on, and just that being able to do what we were doing is we ran a ramen master class and we were making pasta by hand.
And as I sort of walked around the room, I noticed that people were just talking and having these quite casual conversations about quiet, you know, sensitive topics and you know things that they're dealing with at home, things that are stressing them out or you know are associated with their caring role.
But I think yeah, being able to sort of engage in something quite mindful, such as making ramen or just doing something with your hands. Even if it's you're driving somewhere with your partner. It just seems to be easier for some reason to be able to talk and open up.
Patty
Well, driving with your partner can sometimes go one of 2 ways. You're either gonna backseat drive start bickering, or you're gonna open up and have a deep, meaningful conversation, aren't you?
James
That's it, yeah.
Patty
Do you know it's really interesting that you said that because it's reminded me of something that a friend of mine shared when she went to women's groups because they were encouraged to crochet and to craft so that they were busy doing things and they could be in that relaxed open, receptive state when they shared.
I guess for any gender or for anyone, but particularly men who aren't so comfortable and encouraged to open up with their feelings, it's not so easy to sit and talk about yourself in a group. It can be quite confronting. So, I guess that takes the edge off, doesn't it?
James
Yeah, I fully agree. Yeah. And I don't know. I don't know what it is in particular that makes that a little bit easier, that sort of social lubricant that I mentioned, but yeah, that's something that I have noticed works both in my personal life and yeah with the men's group too.
Patty
Yeah, it's good to think about. You've shared that you're actually more introverted, and you tend to be more of a reflective thinker, and while you also prefer to have a small circle of friends, what activities help you regulate self, regulate, rejuvenate, and even come back to your sense of balance?
James
Sure. Look, I definitely am introverted when it comes to maintaining balance. For me, I love being out in nature. I love being out and about. I love exercising, so I'm a bit obsessed with rock climbing and I also love surfing. Rock climbing is such a mindful activity and it's such a great workout as well. Surfing, look, surfing can be a bit of a bit of a double edged sword.
Patty
How so?
James
Well, it's just incredibly competitive sometimes.
Patty
Oh, you mean to catch the wave because everyone wants the same wave at the same time?
James
That's right. Yeah. Imagine there's, you know, there's only one wave rolling through, and you've got about 20 people trying to catch it, you know. And they've all got to go to work. It's early in the morning everyone wants the same thing
Patty
Ohh, of course, the peak hour of the ocean, yes.
James
Yes! The local beaches for me just they get so crowded so it can get pretty hectic. But yeah, yeah, look, surfing and rock climbing, just overall being out and about. For me, that's how I keep regulated.
Patty
And using your physical body, it seems to really, really balance you those. Endorphins are real, aren't they?
James
That's right.
Patty
Now, while nobody would necessarily be able to see this about you from how you interact, you've told me that you've suffered sometimes from crippling social anxiety in the past. Would 17-year-old James be in awe of how amazing 27-year-old James's life is right now?
James
I think so, yes, 17-year-old James would be very happy with how 27-year-old James’s life has turned out to be so far. I think I would tell my younger self just to not worry and I think a lot of people would say this, you know, looking back they were very nervous or anxious about their future.
And that rings true for me as well. I have always been a little bit anxious, especially at functions or during presentations, which is quite a big aspect of my role. For me it's it helps to realise that when I focus on being of service to other people and just holding that space for them, you know it's not actually about me and that sort of shift in perspective has been really helpful for me in in giving those presentations and not sort of being so nervous and looking so inward.
Patty
So, you just tell yourself this isn't about me, this is about what I can do for others?
James
That's right, exactly. If I'm giving a Carer Gateway presentation or even speaking to a to a men's group, I'm just there to hold that space. I'm there to facilitate an activity for other people or I'm here to just share information for the benefit of others.
Patty
Yeah, you take yourself out of the equation. That's a really nice creative adjustment that you make. So, in your current role, is it a little bit like exposure therapy?
James
Certainly, yes it is! It's exposure therapy in action. I find myself going out, connecting with people, visiting schools to present to staff and of course, facilitating the men's group and young career activities. All of which have been instrumental in overcoming social anxiety and just becoming a little bit more confident and comfortable in these settings. And I'm proud of how far I've come.
Patty
You should be!
James
Thank you.
Patty
You definitely should be and it's not easy because you're not going to the same school doing the same presentation to the same people. All the variables each time are different, aren't they? And they're unpredictable!
James
That's right. Yes, exactly. Yeah. You don't always know what to expect.
Patty
That's really launching yourself off the cliff.
James
Yeah, that's it. You don't know what you're walking into a lot of the time, but again, it’s exposure therapy.
Patty
Do you have any advice for young men wishing to study social work or psychology or even counselling, and who are who might be feeling intimidated about this sector viewed as a female role? Do you have any advice for them?
James
Yeah look, and it might sound a bit cliche, but I would always just say to follow your passion. Do things that you're interested in and don't be deterred by traditional gender roles. I think it's best to actually embrace the diversity that you bring to these professions, certainly, and seek inspiration from male role models who have succeeded in these areas. I think being a male gives you a unique perspective which is going to be a valuable. Set in making a positive impact on people's lives.
Patty
Yeah, we all need those invisible mentors, don't we?Cause it's a template, and then we can just update the prototype according to our personality.
James
Definitely we do. We do. Sure. Yeah. Uh-huh.
Patty
That's great advice. OK, let's do some rapid fire wrap ups. What's your favourite type of weather?
James
Oh, OK. I like both warm and cold weather, actually. So yeah, I would say both because warm weather is great for swimming and great for surfing.
Patty
You are unusual. You are very unique, James Fenech.
James
Haha. And cold weather is amazing for rock climbing. You don't want it to be too hot to go rock climbing, cause otherwise the rock gets really warm and your fingers get all sweaty. So I would say, yeah, overall probably both.
Patty
A man of all seasons. Alright, James. Who do you text the most?
James
My partner Abbey for sure. Yeah.
Patty
Do you look like a troll or a wellness guru when you're lounging around your house?
James
Haha I'm somewhere in the middle I can look maybe like a wellness guru and then just slowly deteriorate until I'm in full troll mode and then I will just decide. OK, enough is enough. And then I sort myself out.
Patty
What's your pet peeve?
James
At the moment my pet peeve is people who get to the end of an escalator or set of stairs and then they just stop and it's like, come on, you have to keep moving. This is a thoroughfare.
People are going to bump into you, but some people, and especially in shopping centres, they will get to the top of the escalator and then think “where am I gonna go now” and then you know, inevitably there's people building up behind them. And that just irritates me.
Patty
What I love most is that you said “well currently”, I love that you've got seasonal pet peeves.
James
Yeah, yeah. I do.
Patty
All right. Do you bring your own lunch but end up eating it before lunch and then having to buy take out?
James
Yes, yes, Patty. Yes, you get me. If, look, if I pack a lunch, all that means is that I'm having two lunches that day because yeah, I'll eat it in the morning at like 10:00 and then by the time lunch time actually comes around, I've got no food and I'm hungry.
Patty
I hear you. We are cut from the same cloth. James, you've been wonderful. Thank you so much.
James
Thank you, Patty. This is awesome.
Patty
It's been great having you. If this chat with James was helpful for you, please like and subscribe to our podcast, but if you really wanna help us ensure that we get to the right listeners who need to hear our episodes the most, leaving us a 5 star review gives that podcast algorithm a little bit of a helping hand.
I'm a big believer that representation matters. There is a lack of recognition for male carers, and they need to be supported in their caring roles, as much like their female counterparts, they're often juggling work and other commitments.
Our studies have shown that carers groups specifically targeted towards men have proven to be a very beneficial form of support from our carers. Like James said, ultimately the goal is to create a supportive community where individuals feel heard, understood and less alone in their caregiving roles.
It's a chance for men of all cultural background. To embrace all forms of diversity in our community as well as get in touch with and express their feelings by sharing their experiences with others who can relate to them until we meet again, take extra good care of yourself today.
Billy:
If you are caring for a relative or a friend who has a disability, a mental health condition, a life limiting health or medical condition.
Or they are frail because they're getting older. Please contact us at Carer Gateway on 1800 422 737, or look us up on www.carergateway.gov.au
And if you are a carer, you're allowed to take time to look after yourself. You are just as important as the person you take care of.