Graeme Cowan joins us to share his journey of being clinically depressed and unable to work for 5 years. His psychiatrist described it as the worst case he had ever treated, and since finding the medication that works best for him, Graeme helped co found the “RUOK” charity, and is now a motivational speaker who shares his wellness tips with organisations and individuals. GUEST: Graeme Cowan - https://graemecowan.com.au/ SOCIAL MEDIA: Follow The Benevolent Society on Instagram Follow Carer Gateway on Facebook Follow The Benevolent Society on Facebook CREDITS: Host – Patty Kikos Producers – Patty Kikos and John Hresc Sound Engineer – John Hresc GET IN TOUCH: Carer Gateway is proud to offer emotional and practical services and support for carers with the aim of making your life easier. You can call us on 1800 422 737 to find out more about peer support groups, counselling, coaching, online skills courses, tailored support packages, emergency respite, other government supports, as well as tips and information, or visit our online home at www.carergateway.gov.au Got some questions or thoughts for the team? Email us at cgconnections@benevolent.org.au. ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: The Benevolent Society acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Graeme Cowan joins us to share his journey of being clinically depressed and unable to work for 5 years. His psychiatrist described it as the worst case he had ever treated, and since finding the medication that works best for him, Graeme helped co found the “RUOK” charity, and is now a motivational speaker who shares his wellness tips with organisations and individuals.
GUEST:
Graeme Cowan - https://graemecowan.com.au/
SOCIAL MEDIA:
Follow The Benevolent Society on Instagram
Follow Carer Gateway on Facebook
Follow The Benevolent Society on Facebook
CREDITS:
Host – Patty Kikos
Producers – Patty Kikos and John Hresc
Sound Engineer – John Hresc
GET IN TOUCH:
Carer Gateway is proud to offer emotional and practical services and support for carers with the aim of making your life easier.
You can call us on 1800 422 737 to find out more about peer support groups, counselling, coaching, online skills courses, tailored support packages, emergency respite, other government supports, as well as tips and information, or visit our online home at www.carergateway.gov.au
Got some questions or thoughts for the team? Email us at cgconnections@benevolent.org.au.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS:
The Benevolent Society acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Graeme
And something else I'll talk about today is the mood-ometer. And, you know, we all go up and down the mood-ometer. The Green Zone is where we're really positive, energetic, resourceful.
Patty
Firing on all cylinders?
Graeme
All cylinders. And the red zone is where we're really depressed, anxious and ashamed.
Patty
What's in the middle?
Graeme
It’s the Amber Zone transition zone. It's always better for people to take action when they go to that Amber zone. If they slip from the Green to the Amber, it's much faster to turn it around if you're in the Amber zone.
Compared to the red zone, if you get someone really depressed, as I was, it can take a long, long time to turn that around.
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Billy:
From the Carer Gateway at the Benevolent Society, we welcome you to, Carer Conversations with your host Patty Kikos.
The Care Gateway is the Australian Government national care hub and provides reliable services, support and advice especially for carers.
This podcast is where we share interviews with guests that have specialized knowledge to help support carers to look after their emotional, mental and physical well-being.
We are recording on Aboriginal country, on lands which were never ceded. We acknowledge the traditional custodians and cultural knowledge holders of these lands and waters. We pay our respects to Aboriginal elders, past and present.
Always was, always will be.
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Patty
Hello my lovely listeners, and welcome to our precious podcast here at Carer Conversations. Unlike our usual studio setting, we are filming and recording out in the community just before our Men’s Mental Health day event begins.
So if you hear some extra sounds, we hope it adds to our charm. I’ve managed to steal some time from Graeme Cowan who is one of the keynote speakers before he goes on stage, so that you can also have a chance to meet him as well.
Graeme is a leadership, resilience ,and motivational speaker. He wrote a book called ‘Back From The Brink’ after his breakdown which ultimately became a best seller, and then went on to publish three more books.
Graeme likes to give people simple things they can do to improve their mental wellbeing, such as mastering their mood and staying in the green zone, regardless of what might happening in their world.
He believes that today’s life can make us distracted and flustered, and believes it’s important to identify what is meaningful to you and your community of people, and to commit to a plan to make it happen.
Values I absolutely agree with myself. Graham HELLO!!
Graeme
Lovely to join you Patty.
Patty
Oh, it's great to have you here take me back to when you were five. Where were you living? Who were you living with and what was your favourite thing to do in the world?
Graeme
I was living right on the golf course in Taree. I grew up in Taree and it was a wonderful adventure place. We made so many incursions across the the golf course often got in trouble from golfers. And I was living then with my 2 sisters, and I had a really good friend. That was very close by. So, it was a wonderful, wonderful place to grow up.
Patty
Would you say that you're spiritual or religious?
Graeme
Yeah, I'm not religious, but I would say I'm spiritual. Meditation is a really, really important part of my life. It's a very, very foundational thing that I do every day. And I know that doing it keeps me well.
Patty
Were either of your parents or maybe any of your extended family members prone to feeling depressed, down or even anxious?
Graeme
I'm sure they all had periods which were really, really tough, but none had the prolonged episode of depression that I did, so not really.
Patty
Were you a confident kid would you say?
Graeme
Yeah I was pretty confident. I really loved sport. I was good at sport and swimming and football and cricket and yeah, so I was a confident kid.
Patty
What was your transition into high school like?
Graeme
It was always very, very adventurous. I remember the first day at the high school where you're able to get these apple and cream puffs and I couldn't get that in primary school. So, I bought one of those. And much to my surprise, while I was eating it, one of the older kids came from behind and squashed all that cream and apple into my face so.
It wasn't great, but that was probably the most unusual thing that happened the whole time there. It happened on day one.
Patty
You had a creamy, sticky rite of passage.
Graeme
I did. I did.
Patty
You were used to being well and being on top of things, but at the end of your 2nd year of uni, you experienced what you've described as your first bout of depression. Now in hindsight, did you know that it was depression because this was what late 70s early 80’s?
Graeme
Yeah, it was, I think 1977. And there was no discussion about depression back then. There was no Beyond Blue or Black Dog Institute, nothing like that. So, I really didn't know what it was. And. It was I got over it over a period of time, spontaneously.
I didn't even really seek help for it. But I know now it was my first episode and thankfully, now there's great awareness that these things exist and there's great resources to find online, but it didn't exist back then.
Patty
What was the pivotal moment for you when you embarked into the workforce because I know that you held leadership positions with Johnson & Johnson, and you've spoken about how your boss at the time at Pfizer, and these are your words, I'm paraphrasing like, “you were a maybe a level or 2 above where you actually were”. Do you think that that accelerated your leadership development knowing that someone unequivocally believed in you?
Graeme
Ohh without a doubt you know he really cared, Jack really cared and yeah, he just gave me tasks that I'd never done before. But he had faith in me to do it. Well, if he thinks I could do it, maybe I can. And so, I would try things and not always succeed in the best way. But yeah, I definitely progressed very quickly with that sort of mentor and guidance and also just a mindset that you know, if it doesn't work the first time, try again, work something else out. And that mindset is very, very important.
Anyone that has a boss like that will always do well and that's why I'm very passionate about leaders really creating a mentally healthy and supportive workplace where people are in, and encouraged to try things and grow.
Patty
And if they don't get it right to be supported in that process, I think that's a big key. You're about to present to our audience for our men's mental health day. If there was only one thing that one of the attendees could take away.
Patty
What would it be? And I mean, I know they'll take away at least 10.
Graeme
The big thing is self-care isn't selfish and this is so relevant to carers you know. Often, they can make their focus the person they're looking after and that's understandable. But it's incredibly important that they do things that enhance their mood because if they run out of fuel, they can't help other people. So that's the big message. Self-care isn't selfish.
Patty
Self-care is not selfish. Yes, and you would know a lot about that because in the year 2000, you experienced a profound, “deep five year depression that your psychiatrist described as the worst case he had ever treated”.
Was this something that came out of the blue for you because in hindsight, I mean, you could see that your work was stressful. Your first marriage had broken down and then you couldn't work much let alone look after yourself. I believe you had to move in with your mum and dad.
Graeme
Yeah, I really wasn't capable looking after myself. I couldn't sleep properly. I was anxious. And you just get into a mindset where you think it will never change and it's very funny. Not funny, but it's unusual now, thinking back to that time because I have such a good life now. But I never thought that was possible. And that's why I am really motivated to, for people to seek help.
To take action to try new things, because in the vast, vast majority case, these situations do turn around.
Patty
Indeed, indeed. I mean, you tried to end your life, you went to a doctor, you went on some meds. They were antidepressants, weren't they? Yes. And I've heard you say that you felt ashamed at the time. So when you returned to work, you didn't necessarily tell anyone what you'd been navigating. I mean, what would Graeme of today tell Graeme of that day?
Graeme
Yeah. The sad part is there's still stigma around in the workplace. Even you know so much later than that period then.
Patty
Because this is 24 years ago, isn't it?
Graeme
Yeah, it is. And one thing that I do encourage people to do is just to share your story with someone you trust. You know, don't share it with everyone. Just try that, see how it goes, and then they might be able to suggest someone else to speak to. But generally speaking, people are better off to know you have these struggles, rather than just pretending everything's fine.
Patty
Tell us about the treatments you had because you were unable to work for five years and I know you navigated a lot. Your body has been through a lot.
Graeme
Yeah, I really tried everything. I think I had like 21 different combinations of medication.
Patty
What? Different concoctions of antidepressants?
Graeme
Yeah mainly antidepressants, but also some antipsychotics which help to relax and sleep and that sort of thing. But you know, in addition to that, I had brain stimulation, I also had ECT or shock therapy. For about 20 occasions I went to psychologists, naturopath's, kinesiologists, you know, I really felt I needed to try everything to sort of make a difference.
Patty
It sounds like you did. What would you share with any carer listening today that is looking after a loved one that might be battling the crippling type of depression that you also had?
Graeme
I think a very important component is if they're able to, to encourage them to go for a walk or to get outside regularly, you know, every day. The house has four walls and we think I think it gets very restricted. I think if if we are in there getting outside, getting in nature, seeing trees, you know, the fresh air is really, really good for you. And if they're able to have a 30-minute brisk walk.
It's been shown that it is incredibly important, just as important as antidepressants, for, you know, moderate depression. And it's, you know, it's easy to do, it's free. And it could also have the side benefit of allowing you to have good conversations. Because there's often really something that happens when you're shoulder to shoulder rather than looking directly at a person, people will share more.
Patty
So you're suggesting the carer and the cared for would go for a little walk together, even if it's around the block? Yeah. So no pressure. You can speak if you want to. Yeah. You don't have to if you don't want to.
Graeme
Yeah. None. No pressure, no pressure.
Patty
Yeah, that's a great suggestion. You've been very dedicated to your health and your medication, and you've been honest that if it wasn't an overnight success or journey.
Graeme
No, it wasn't that. You know, I think the first real turn around was really committing to walking 40 minutes each day. So I experienced that benefit first hand, which is why I really encourage people to think about it.
Patty
Is that the first thing you do every day?
Graeme
The first thing I do everyday is to meditate, but then I do either go for a walk or or do some other exercise sort of thing. So it's a wonderful way to start the day, we live right beside the bush in Gordon in Sydney and it.
Patty
It's very leafy, there, isn't it?
Graeme
It's really really beautiful, and we've got a young black Labrador who comes with us, and labradors and dogs are amazing for living in the present. Yeah, we often say wife, and I often say that Maggie has a PhD in mindfulness because she is totally in the moment.
Patty
Your book back from the brink was written from first hand knowledge of surviving 4 suicide attempts and suffering from clinical depression. Before we get into the grittier aspects of it, some of our carers have asked how you managed to get former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair to write a testimonial and even Oscar nominated actress Glenn Close to write the forward.
Graeme
I was in my work just before that episode I was a headhunter, A recruitment consultant, and so I was very skilled at being able to negotiate my way past gatekeepers and that sort of thing. In the case of Tony Blair, he was best friends with Geoff Gallup, who was the previous West Australian premier.
I'd interviewed Jeff, and so he provided an introduction, and then I also interviewed Alistair Campbell, who was one of Tony Blair's chief advisers. So, it was network working that way.
Patty
But genuine networking, working like you had genuine relationships with these people.
Graeme
Yeah, I did. I did. And so there was trust there, of course. And so, they felt confident to refer me.
Graeme
And also with Glenn Close, I spoke at a conference where her sister Jesse had spoken. She had bipolar and so we got on really, really well. And so, she helped provide an introduction to Glenn. It didn't happen straight away, you know, I found just had to be persistent. Not in a real nuisance way, but be prepared to sort of follow up and. That's how it happened.
Patty
What is that in your personality? Is that a tenacity? Is that a genuine desire to have something that you see in your vision manifest in reality? Because it's a beautiful mechanism that you have in your personality. And I I'm thrilled that it wasn't dulled in any way, shape or form by the depression that you experienced.
Graeme
No, I think a big thing that was important to my recovery was seeing a sense of purpose about what I've been through. And right in the book was where I transitioned to just thinking about me all the time to thinking about we. And we never, you know, things didn't come off. I just remind myself that, you know, just persist. You're on an important journey here, and there's more chance of it actually happening if you do persist in a kind way, and in most cases that works out.
Patty
Yeah. It sounds amazing. You helped Gavin Larkin start the Are You OK? charity in 2019, which also has a designated day honoring that concept. You're still a non-active board member. Tell us what that means. What does it actually entail?
Graeme
Well, now I'm no longer on the board, but I was on the board for 13 years and. And so it was unbelievably hard in the first year. We had no money; we had no employees. So, we really had to be very, very resourceful. As times gone on, we've got more sponsorship. And really the role of the board is to really increase the reach and impact of the day and not just the day of course. So, if you look at the website now, it doesn't say ‘Are You OK Day’ it says ‘Are You OK?’ And that's because we want people to have a 365 mindset. You don't know when…
Patty
They're not going to be OK.
Graeme
Right. You don't know when it's gonna happen, and so you need to be prepared for that.
Patty
Was it part of your healing journey to help set up that charity because you had just recovered. You had just written your book. You had just decided that you were going to go and tour. You were going to approach organisations. You were also going to approach companies that didn't think that low morale or depression was an issue. And so did this become part of your purpose, but also a double-edged sword in the sense that it was also a very instrumental part of your healing journey?
Graeme
Yeah, it was definitely a very important element. You know, just it provided the opportunity to increase the impact of what I was doing and a much, much bigger scale. And then you know, then it created its own momentum. And so, there's a great team there now there's, you know, plenty of funding, which is always nice when you're running a charity. And the interesting thing was right from the start, we set up to have digital resources be very, very strong on social media and that's been a key part. We didn't go from being a charity which relied on brochures and pamphlets. It was always about digital solutions, which could be spread and shared.
Patty
I mean the hashtag spread like wildfire. #AreYouOK? It's it was a phenomena. And I mean, that would have been a very big part of your archetypal identity at the time. And now you've moved on to other areas of your life, which just goes to show. We have different chapters, we have different seasons, and we need to move through them, don't we?
Graeme
Very much.
Patty
Tell us about your VIP model, vitality, intimacy and prosperity.
Because I've heard you say that to have a proper contribution to the world, you cannot contribute to other people unless you know what your purpose is, and unless you've been able to assess what you need, to have a vital life.
Graeme
Yeah, it was lots of exploration and really discovering what were the important parts of our life. And when I wrote my book, I studied over 4000 people to find out what worked and helped in their recovery. And basically, it did come down to, you know, vitality, which is our physical health. So that's getting exercise, getting good rest and eating well.
Intimacy is our emotional health. So that's about having supportive and caring relationships around us and in the longest well-being studies ever done, it was shown that those that had caring and supportive relationships were those that had the best life, the longest life, the healthiest life.
And the third element is prosperity or P, and that's about our contribution to our well-being. Now, that can come from the work we do. You know the carers here; I'm sure feel a real sense of contribution when they help their loved one. It could also come from your paid work if you really believe in the work you're doing. If you're volunteering time for a charity or a sport or a school, it can come from that.
And so that is the the, you know, the acronym VIP and so and what I'll be advocating today at my presentation is to encourage people to live like a VIP each day. And that means you top up every day a little bit in each of those 3 glasses because it's not enough to just be good in one area for life to be sustained well-being and contribution, you need to think about all three of those everyday.
Patty
I like that I'm curious as to where your mental health field fits in. In that model of the VIP.
Graeme
Yeah, well. I guess I would still say that's vitality.
And something else I'll talk about today is the mood-ometer. And, you know, we all go up and down the mood-ometer. The Green Zone is where we're really positive, energetic, resourceful.
Patty
Firing on all cylinders?
Graeme
All cylinders. And the red zone is where we're really depressed and feel anxious and shame.
Patty
What's in the middle?
Graeme
It’s the Amber Zone, transition zone. It's always better for people to take action when they go to that Amber zone. If they slip from the Green to the Amber, it's much faster to turn it around if you're in the Amber zone.
Compared to the red zone, if you get someone really depressed, as I was, it can take a long, long time to turn that around.
Patty
I agree. You've shared in the past that you used to compare yourself to others. Is this because you were innately competitive or because you didn't have another measure for success?
Graeme
It was probably a bit of both. I think I was competitive. And I still am competitive in some ways. But I also once heard a podcast interview, and this guy talked about how he was always comparing himself to others.
But what really worked for him was saying you can't just exchange one part of your life for them if they live in a beautiful home. You can't just take the home. You have to take the rest of their life. So, you've got to have their relationships, their career, their mental and physical health and their personal qualities. Now with that whole package, would you want to change that?
And now you know in 99% of the cases, maybe even more, I say no, not the full package. There could be elements, but I'm very, very comfortable in my skin now.
Patty
Because when we compare we compare with the with the things that are visible. There are so many invisible things like it might look like you have a perfect relationship, but there might be dynamics that aren't necessarily aligned with your values.
Graeme
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.
Patty
Same with people's physical health and virility. Yeah, I would agree. I actually wish I was more competitive. There was a stint in my life, a chapter where I sold advertising for the Yellow Pages. And there was a leaderboard and I always thought that my name was last because it was listed in alphabetical order. I didn't realise that I was coming last…
Do you think male carers could be better supported?
Graeme
I think they could do a lot to support each other, and you're in a situation where you'll have a lot in common with other male carers and I would really encourage them to think about if they can regularly catch up with other male cares physically.
Patty
What are some examples?
Graeme
Well, it could be breakfast catching up for breakfast. It could be going for a walk. It could be going to a movie, but in my experience, and I do a couple of these things each week, it's positive for me to do something like a walk. We can also talk.
And so, it really does allow real things to be disclosed and in those relationships, you're looking for a positive experience and that's got to be a natural, because why would you keep doing it if it wasn't a positive experience? You've also got to do it regularly and it's much, much better to do it in person than remotely.
Patty
And if it's scheduled, then it's likely to happen.
Graeme
Exactly. And the 3rd element is, you know you want to be comfortable to be vulnerable with that person. To say that you have to talk about what really happened this week, how that made you feel. And the amazing thing is when one man discloses what's been going on and says that they had it tough, it gives permission for other men to do the same thing. And that's when you get that true rapport and a great sense of support.
Patty
Camaraderie and support you’re right. You mentioned something earlier when you suggested that when you have a loved one that's suffering from depression, to suggest going for a walk so that you can be side by side.
There is something quite magical that happens when we're in someone's presence, and we might be feeling a little vulnerable. We might be feeling a little low, but the act of not necessarily facing them head on means that it's not as combative for some people if they're feeling a little defensive, but it's not as confrontational.
So, the amount of times that people open up whilst driving in a car for instance, as opposed to sitting across from someone in a restaurant or at a table, it's phenomenal, isn't it? It lessens the pressure.
Graeme
Yeah, it is, yeah. Yeah, very much so.
Patty
Yeah, almost like the feeling of being in a circle. Like I know it's my turn. I know I can skip, but it feels safe to not have to have everyone looking at me.
Graeme
And there's also lots of evidence that supports the well-being of being in nature as well versus just walking along the street. And so, if you can get to a park or a trail, it’s all the better.
Patty
Yeah, I agree. And you know, you could be walking together, but not in the same place and have a phone conversation just at the same time.
Graeme
Yeah. Well, I in fact do that. I had a good friend that lived in my suburb, but he moved down to Vincentia on the South Coast. So, we catch up every Thursday, but we just have our air pods in, and we even go to respective coffee shops.
We have, you know, virtual coffees together, but it's very, very helpful. He’s in a very tough situation at the moment as he's got a child who basically is dying. Yeah, and it's just fantastic for him to be able to talk now.
Patty
Yes, and you're holding the space by listening.
Graeme
Yeah, and then we've at various times in our lives swapped. I've been going through tough things and he's able to just let me speak. Yeah, it's very, very important and probably one of the most important things for our emotional well-being is to have someone where we can share things that are going on and not to feel judged.
Patty
Yes. And I think it's important to have it scheduled. So, you said you have a regular Thursday thing, but I bet you have maybe a regular Tuesday thing with other people for instance.
Graeme
Yeah, I have a regular Sunday thing where I meet a couple of friends, a couple of guys at the beach at Curl Curl in Sydney and walk up all the way up to Manly, come back and have breakfast. And honestly, every Sunday it looks different. You know, it's a different surf or wind or cloud or sparkling and beautiful, and it changes each week.
Patty
Yes. It sounds like a beautiful healing experience. What's your favourite thing about your life right now, Graeme?
Graeme
I have a very, very good life, you know I’m very lucky to do work that I find really, really meaningful. I have flexibility where I'm able to take holidays when I want to, and my wife and I often do walking holidays and walked in long tracks in Japan and Portugal.
And actually in three weeks time we're going to New Zealand and walking the Queen Charlotte walk there. I really love looking forward to that. She also has a very, very busy life. She heads the Research Centre in Cancer Epidemiology and for her it's a wonderful break because there's no phones.
Patty
Yes.
Graeme
And you're doing that physical exercise, and you can be really in the moment. So, it's something we enjoy very much.
Patty
What I'm hearing is that you have a lot of freedom.
Graeme
Freedom’s good, freedom’s good.
Patty
Yeah, it's wonderful. I am gonna wrap it up with some rapid fire wrap up questions. Are you ready?
Graeme
I am.
Patty
If you were to describe your parents in one word, what would it be?
Graeme
Kind.
Patty
Yes, this is a value that you seem to have embodied as well in your life. I can't help but notice. What is your favourite time of the day and why? I can probably guess what it is.
Graeme
Yeah, I bet you can. It's the morning, and I usually get up before the sun comes up. And it's lovely just seeing the light filtering of the day as the morning goes on.
Patty
What's one vice that you wish you could give up?
Graeme
I'm a bit torn in this because I think everyone should give up alcohol altogether, but I enjoy beer. I enjoy wine, so I don't think I will ever give it up.
Patty
Well, I like that. If you had one message to share with the world, what would it be?
Graeme
It's to to be caring, to be helpful and don't be afraid to try new things.
Patty
Beautfiul messages, thankyou so much Graeme. It has been a pleasure.
And that’s a wrap for today’s episode folks. It’s been so much fun to be able to take you on the road with me today, and I hope you’ve been inspired by Graeme’s journey. We’ll be sure to have his website details in our show notes for you as well.
As always, liking subscribing, and ESPECIALLY giving us a five star review ensures we get to the right listening ears, for the people who need to hear it the most.
If this episode has brought up some emotions that you might need help processing, you can always access Lifeline at any time of any day on 13 11 14.
Until we meet again, take extra good care of yourself, make sure you schedule in the things that bring you the most joy, and as always, we are sending you so much love.
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Billy:
If you are caring for a relative or a friend who has a disability, a mental health condition, a life limiting health or medical condition.
Or they are frail because they're getting older. Please contact us at Carer Gateway on 1800 422 737, or look us up on www.carergateway.gov.au
And if you are a carer, you're allowed to take time to look after yourself. You are just as important as the person you take care of.