This month, Patty Kikos interviews Kristina Duke, an expert on decluttering and home organisation. As a mum and wife who lives with 3 very different neurodivergent people in her home, Kristina has the lived experience of understanding the varied needs that many require in order to function with joy, ease and sustainability. Kristina is passionate about bringing this level of respect and empathy to her clients. GUEST: Kristina Duke - https://declutteringdiva.com.au/ SOCIAL MEDIA: Follow Patty on Instagram Follow The Benevolent Society on Instagram Follow Carer Gateway on Facebook Follow The Benevolent Society on Facebook CREDITS: Host – Patty Kikos Producers – Patty Kikos and John Hresc Sound Engineer – John Hresc GET IN TOUCH: Carer Gateway is proud to offer emotional and practical services and support for carers with the aim of making your life easier. You can call us on 1800 422 737 to find out more about peer support groups, counselling, coaching, online skills courses, tailored support packages, emergency respite, other government supports, as well as tips and information, or visit our online home at www.carergateway.gov.au Got some questions or thoughts for Patty or the team? Email us at cgconnections@benevolent.org.au and put ‘Attention Patty’ in the subject line. ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: The Benevolent Society acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
This month, Patty Kikos interviews Kristina Duke, an expert on decluttering and home organisation. As a mum and wife who lives with 3 very different neurodivergent people in her home, Kristina has the lived experience of understanding the varied needs that many require in order to function with joy, ease and sustainability. Kristina is passionate about bringing this level of respect and empathy to her clients.
GUEST:
Kristina Duke - https://declutteringdiva.com.au/
SOCIAL MEDIA:
Follow Patty on Instagram
Follow The Benevolent Society on Instagram
Follow Carer Gateway on Facebook
Follow The Benevolent Society on Facebook
CREDITS:
Host – Patty Kikos
Producers – Patty Kikos and John Hresc
Sound Engineer – John Hresc
GET IN TOUCH:
Carer Gateway is proud to offer emotional and practical services and support for carers with the aim of making your life easier.
You can call us on 1800 422 737 to find out more about peer support groups, counselling, coaching, online skills courses, tailored support packages, emergency respite, other government supports, as well as tips and information, or visit our online home at www.carergateway.gov.au
Got some questions or thoughts for Patty or the team? Email us at cgconnections@benevolent.org.au and put ‘Attention Patty’ in the subject line.
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS:
The Benevolent Society acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Kristina:
So they understand I'm a human too. I’m not a minimalist that has nothing.
I used to be an English literature girl back in high school days and I had ‘Gerbils’ and ‘Great Expectations’ and things like that on my bookshelf, and I hadn't read them for years, and I remember I was a young mum and I'd only been reading, like, ‘Hop on Pop’ and ‘ABC 123’ for so long and I kept those books to remind myself that I was intelligent. I was smart because I was feeling a little dumb. You know, when you’re just reading those sorts of simple books.
Patty:
Those nursery rhymes over and over again.
Kristina:
Yes! Those nursery rhymes over and over again, and ‘One Day I Went To The Zoo To Get Me a Pet’. You know, those kinds of ones? And then I realised that no one was looking at my bookcase to see who I was as a person, I was only doing that.
But, I think a lot of people do that. We take books, they're like friends. They're old memories that we have, like ‘Anne of Green Gables’ for me, will always be like a childhood favourite. But I don't need to have it on my bookshelf to remember that that's my favourite, and I don't need to keep my Psych books or my education books, to remind people, I'm smart like they don't even look half the time.
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Billy:
From the Carer Gateway at the Benevolent Society, we welcome you to, Carer Conversations with your host Patty Kikos.
The Care Gateway is the Australian Government national care hub and provides reliable services, support and advice especially for carers.
This podcast is where we share interviews with guests that have specialized knowledge to help support carers to look after their emotional, mental and physical well-being.
We are recording on Aboriginal country, on lands which were never ceded. We acknowledge the traditional custodians and cultural knowledge holders of these lands and waters. We pay our respects to Aboriginal elders, past and present.
Always was, always will be.
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Patty:
My fabulous carers and listeners, hello and happy new year to you!
May 2024 be full of love, abundance, health, peace and prosperity for you and your loved ones.
Thank you for joining us especially as we are kicking off the new year with our 21st episode. Can you believe it? For those that have been part of our journey form the very beginning, we are very grateful for your support, especially when you like, subscribe and leave us a 5 star review - it means the world to us.
Now today, I have a topic that I'd like to share with everyone, and I'm really interested to hear what it means for you.
Are you ready?
OK, here it goes:
Decluttering.
There, I said it!
What does it mean for you? Is it a word or a term that brings you comfort, excitement or stress?
This is a idea that is actually very close to my own heart, as every time I've done a deep dive into what I no longer wear, use, read, or even need, and then subsequently donate or rehome it, the clutter does disappear, and it creates a more streamlined physical space.
But on an energetic level. It's like there's room for new people and new opportunities to land and then expand in my life.
I'm also really interested in the psychology of systems. James Clear authored a book called ‘Atomic Habits’, where he talks about the concept of “habit stacking”, and I actually use this to ensure I remain consistent with my morning routine so that when I go into the office instead of working from home, I don't get confused, flustered, and overwhelmed by the different things I need to do.
Life tends to be simpler if I keep all morning tasks the same.
And what about you? Do you like to be minimalistic in your home? Are you an organised person? Do you function better when things are meticulously arranged, or do you thrive in chaos?
Because I'm about to chat to Kristina Duke, who has created a business called ‘Decluttering Diva’ and helps people re-organise and declutter their lives. We'll share her website in the show notes and the transcription.
Now, Kristina, were you well organised and systematic as a child, or was it something you learned over the years?
Kristina:
Well, that's a good question. I was trying to be organised as a child. I was one of those people who had like 5 different diaries and was always rearranging my room and re-jigging how the clothes were, so it's a mix.
I was trying but I wasn't very good at it. My dad said my room was the place where clothes went to die. You had.
Patty:
You had a floor-drobe instead of wardrobe?
Kristina:
I had a floor-drobe, but it was because I was trying to work on processes and figure them out before processes was a word. They didn't have that term back in my day. They would just say, “clean your room!”, but no one told you how to do it, or how to make it work for you and how your brain worked.
Patty:
Do you still use a diary today?
Kristina:
Yeah. Oh, definitely I have. I'm definitely a sucker still for paper and a pen, there's something very satisfying about writing things down and then crossing them off or ticking them off.
Patty:
I certainly relate. Yeah, it helps me remember if I write it down, I know what I'm doing for the next 7 to 10 days versus if it's online, I don't necessarily remember.
Kristina:
Yeah, well, I find if I'm looking at a calendar online, it's just on your little phone. It's way too overwhelming. You can't see the details. So yeah.
Patty:
So, you use a calendar for your people in the office as well, but a diary for yourself?
Kristina:
Yeah, we definitely have an online version because everyone needs to access it. But I love paper and pen. I will always be a sucker for a stationary store.
Patty:
Well, ‘Decluttering Diva’ is your business. What do you actually do?
Kristina:
That's a really good question. Gosh, we do everything. So, it could be helping people to declutter things they haven't unpacked for years. It could be helping them to downsize before they're moving. Could be decluttering and packing. It could be to help make their home work for them. Maybe if they've got a disability or their brain works differently so it's laid out to suit the way their lives work.
Patty:
Ohh so putting systems in place for them specifically?
Kristina:
Yes, so many of us, you know, you go into a house, and you've got wardrobes, just like the one bar. And that doesn't work for everyone. Some people need to have things folded; some people need to have more hanging space. And we just try to create things that work for their life instead of the way that the Internet told us we're supposed to do it.
Patty:
Yeah. So, their life, their preferences, their personality.
Kristina:
Yeah.
Patty:
And do you do other things like taking them to other appointments or processing payments that they haven't done?
Kristina:
Ohh yeah, like some of our clients it could be that they get a backlog of paperwork and we help them go through it and call all those companies that they need to get that cheque reinstated because they waited so long, they never banked it and now it's not cleared. Some of my clients I've literally had to take them to a dentist appointment because they just wouldn't do it without a little helping hand.
Patty:
This sounds like it sets you apart from your competitors. And I know that you talk about a concept called ‘Chronic Disorganisation Specialty’, and this relates to 25 subcategories that make it up and I'd love you to unpack that with us.
Kristina:
Yeah. Well, our difference is that we're not working with people whose lives are already running smoothly and they just need things to be pretty. We're working with people that have different issues. Maybe it's executive functioning issues like ADHD, or being on the autism spectrum, maybe they've had a lot of trauma, or they've moved a lot. They've had a divorce. They've had death.
For some people, it's like they've actually got hoarding, or behaviours that they've learned either from parents or they've just got faulty thinking. And they've been doing this for so long, these things really trap them, and someone could come in and make a pretty house, but unless you actually work on changing some of these bigger long term chronic issues, the change won't last.
So, we're working on our differences, working with people that have things that are going to be there for a long time, and we know it's not going to just really can magically you know, be better. They're going to have to learn a new way of their new normal.
Patty:
Yeah, because some people will say, “if I don't see it, I won't use it”. Whereas other people, are like, “if I have it all organised in a particular way, that's how I'll function”. Is that right?
Kristina:
Yeah. And it's, I think. Making it work, as I said for their different brain types. So some people are auditory, some people are tactile, some people are visual. That's part of it. It's their learning behavior. Some people, they've just gone through so much loss and trauma that they need someone to hold their hand as they're going through that shoe box of little bits and pieces. And tell the story. And it's cathartic and almost, it's almost like a therapy session as you're going through things.
And some people, they're just really busy with life, whether they're caring for someone, they've got three different jobs, they've got lots of kids. They just don't get it done. That spare room of doom? Things just get shoved in there every time someone comes for dinner.
Patty:
Yeah, and it must be interesting to see people that have so many different preferences, like some people like Vegemite in the fridge, some people like it in the cupboard, did you say?
Kristina:
Did you say Vegemite in the fridge?
{Both giggle}. It is interesting seeing that I've got clients that do some pretty wacky things, which I think are pretty wacky and trying to just do it differently. However, it works for them. Like maybe they have 10 tongs and you’re like, “Why do you need 10 tongs?”
And they explain their story, why they have 10.
Patty:
And so you're like, “get rid of that one horse pony!”
Kristina:
Ohh, I hate those things. You know the things in that utensil drawer like, the potato masher. The melon baller.
Patty:
What's a melon baller?
Kristina:
It's that little scoop that makes perfect little circles of your melons.
Well, no, you don't want one, just choose a knife and a cutting board and cubes are fine. Like why do we need a melon baller?
Patty:
Or we could use ice cream scoopers for many things.
Kristina:
You could do that or things that just do one thing, like there's garlic peelers. There are all these wonderful, wacky things from those home stores, and they literally do one thing, and they clutter up our kitchens and make doing the simplest task of, well, not always a simple task, but make your task so hard that then we go, “Oh, we'll just get takeout!”
And then that adds to another drawer. And it just snowballs and snowballs. So, taking away those couple of little things and just systemizing and making it simpler, it doesn't take away all the stress, but it just makes it a little bit easier.
Patty:
Because, you know, if there's a fine line between somebody's Achilles heel and then controversial topics, like books bookcases and filing cabinets, what are your thoughts on those bad boys?
Kristina:
Oohh, look, books are books. That's a tough one. I relate books as being like friends, so I tell this story often. I'll tell it to the listeners, so they understand I'm a human too. I’m not a minimalist that has nothing.
I used to be an English literature girl back in high school days and I had ‘Gerbils’ and ‘Great Expectations’ and things like that on my bookshelf, and I hadn't read them for years, and I remember I was a young mum and I'd only been reading, like, ‘Hop on Pop’ and ‘ABC 123’ for so long and I kept those books to remind myself that I was intelligent. I was smart because I was feeling a little dumb. You know, when you’re just reading those sorts of simple books.
Patty:
Those nursery rhymes over and over again.
Kristina:
Yes! Those nursery rhymes over and over again, and ‘One Day I Went To The Zoo To Get Me a Pet’. You know, those kinds of ones? And then I realised that no one was looking at my bookcase to see who I was as a person, I was only doing that.
But, I think a lot of people do that. We take books, they're like friends. They're old memories that we have, like ‘Anne of Green Gables’ for me, will always be like a childhood favourite. But I don't need to have it on my bookshelf to remember that that's my favourite, and I don't need to keep my Psych books or my education books, to remind people, I'm smart like they don't even look half the time.
Yeah, but people do that. They get really emotionally attached to things like a book to the point where, they're, like, tripping over them, there's a stack of 10 of them on their bedside table of all these books they may read one day.
Patty:
I can relate. And books are very aspirational, aren't they? “I'm gonna read them..”
Kristina:
Very aspirational.
I'm gonna exactly, and I'm gonna learn to be more, you know, more fit, more smart, more economical with my time.
Whatever The thing is you want to read or it's just I'm going to have me time. Yes.
Patty:
And you know, they're not the easiest things to move. They're quite heavy, aren't they?
Kristina:
Collectively, they get very heavy. They get very heavy, but there's something that you have to do. You have to limit the space. You have to set a limit, otherwise your house would be full and there'd be no space for you.
Patty:
Yeah, it's true.
Is the question most asked of you? Do you have OCD or are you really anal about being neat and tidy? And I'm also conscious of using the term ‘OCD’, because it's actually a psychological disorder.
Kristina:
Yeah, no, I definitely avoid using that term, and I'm definitely not anal. I think I like systems. They make sense to me because doing things more effectively and efficiently makes sense, but I definitely do not have an anal house. I live with 3 people who have ADHD and ASD, so I've had to relax a lot and go with their flow as well.
Yeah, so the kitchen in particular is definitely to my flow, but when it comes to their bedrooms and stuff, I've had to let go. Yeah, and let them have their freedom of the way they like to express themselves with their stuff.
But I think the only thing I'm particularly anal about is my sheets and linen. I fold that with an inch of its life.
Patty:
Ohh, you're one of those people that can. Fold fitted sheets, aren't you?
Kristina:
Oh yeah, that's my skill set.
Patty:
You know, many years ago, I lived and worked from a one-bedroom apartment and I literally did not have the space for many things. So, I developed a habit where if one thing came in, another had to go out. When you share a home with a family, however, as I do now, this system isn't as easy to maintain. What has happened to us as a society where we're not able to organise our lives sustainably?
Kristina:
That is a huge question and a huge thing I'm trying to address. I think we're too fast. This world is moving so fast, we don't have time to stop and consider before we do things we have the ability to get so much for such a cheap price.
Patty:
Yeah, like fast fashion fast.
Kristina:
Fast fashion, $2.00 stores, all this kind of stuff.
Patty:
McDonalds and fast-food outlets.
Kristina:
Yeah. And they give you that little toy with a happy meal. Why do we need that little toy, it just adds to that. That stuff that we're taking home all the time show bags, this, that and the other and it it's not all bad, but if we don't stop and actually consider, “do I need to bring this into my home”, then all of a sudden when you've got one person, it's not too bad, but when there's five of you, bang it explodes.
So yes, and kids bring things home, rocks and sticks and things they made at school, and we just do it. We accumulate. The letterboxes filled with samples, you know, free tea bag here and a free sample there, and you must be conscious and slow down and we don't get to do that. Our life is crazy at the moment.
Patty:
Yeah, I like that you said that it's really fast because the rhythm and the heartbeat of the earth is so much slower than how we are living. During COVID lockdown, we had to slow down, didn't we?
Kristina:
Yeah, and that was something I definitely noticed. I think that's why people started calling us even more it's because they were in their home and realised it wasn't working for them and they wanted to have a sense of calm and order in their place because they wanted to slow down.
But I mean, I think about back in the olden days what we now do in one year, is what would have taken us 10 years to do then.
Patty:
Yes, yes.
Kristina:
Back then, the whole process of like spring cleaning and addressing every single corner of the house and stuff, we don't do that anymore. These days, it's one weekend, if you're lucky to get everything done.
Patty:
Yeah, your special Sunday outfit had to last you a long time. Clothes weren't as accessible as they are now.
Kristina:
Yeah, things were made, and they were made to last, and you only got one. You didn't have a fancy, you know, fancy this and fancy that. And 100 different coffee cups. Everyone owned maybe one set of dinner plates. You know, for each person in the house everything was more thoughtful. It was because the space was limited. Everything was, as I said, more considered, and we just don't do that anymore. We just go, “I'll buy another cupboard and shove it all in there.”
Patty:
Yeah. Or in a filing cabinet. Do we really need them?
Kristina:
I don't think so and I think a lot of people have a lot of things that they probably could let go of. But the old school ways of keeping everything for ‘just in case’, is really ingrained in us.
Patty:
Sure. And I mean you and I are part of a generation where we did take notes. We were part of that era and then we moved into that digital era. So, we don't know that we're in that transitional phase. And that transitional generation where we had both. So how do you throw away things that you painstakingly took notes for?
Kristina:
Well, I've always had the thought, if you haven't retrieved it, if you haven't actually looked at it, then it's not something you need. Filing cabinets are for retrieval, not for storage, and that's something to consider because I think a lot of us think about things, and we just keep it forever, just in case. As I said, it's part of that old war era of things that might become useful, and we're not in that need of like so much need, even when we're poor. We're not poor in Sydney. We're so blessed.
Patty:
Or even in Australia. Yeah. And so many people are multi passionate and have many different roles. So, they have paperwork for the different roles in the qualifications that they have as well. But we could also learn to streamline that, couldn't we?
Kristina:
No, we're very lucky. Ohh totally. There's obviously all the online ways that you could do it, but it's also knowing that whatever you did 30 years ago probably has no relevance because again the world moves so fast that they're expecting everything to be very, very current.
Patty:
What specific tips do you have for carers, and do you have classifications and categories of carers that you help well?
Kristina:
That's a good question. I think my biggest tip for carers and families in general is to get everyone involved. I think there's way too much pressure on, usually the mum, to have to know everything, and to keep everything and to be the the only one that knows how to organise it.
Patty:
That's a good point.
Kristina:
And I'm a big believer and I instilled it with my kids. My husband was a long-distance truck driver and so I was a, what felt like a single mum sometimes, where I had 3 kids under 5, and he was gone for long stints.
And so I told the kids and said we're a team. We have to make this all work as a team and so we'd from a young age it would be something like put a song on and it was the pack up song or getting them to do their laundry since they were 8, and people go, “how do you do that?” I'm like, you just asked them to do it, and if you train them, you get them to do it.
And now I have, you know, 3 highly functioning, you know, early adults going out there in the world and knowing how to put laundry on and make a meal and they know that the kind of reset of a house and what to do. I mean their rooms aren't always perfect, but they know what to do. If they need to do it.
Patty:
But they still have agency over their own space, don't they? And that's important and empowering.
Kristina:
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it took the pressure off me having to be perfect, whatever that means. And having to do everything on my own. And I could do it but doesn't mean I should. And I think carers in particular have a lot on their plate.
And so, the more that they can get other people involved and share that role and have a discussion about it and open it up. I think sometimes clutter is often just literally pushed into cupboards and never talked about, but we need to address it sometimes.
Patty:
Because out of sight, out of mind. But really it does take up space.
Kristina:
It does take up space and it makes and those things in the closet that you don't see, we do see and they add to like a stress, this underlying angst that kind of feels you.
Patty:
It's insidious, isn't it? Yeah. So how do we get our carers to actually put a schedule together and say look, “this is the bulk of what needs to happen, this is how we need to divvy it up and this is how we need to stay accountable.” What's your tip?
Kristina:
Family meetings. I'm all about it. A regular family meeting. But again, just allocating jobs, delegating things, and knowing that they're not gonna do it great the first couple of times, it might take a while, but being patient with that process, because in the long run, it's worth it.
That, and I think, and it's also just enlisting help. So, if you can't get help within the family, then outsourcing as well because that's a big enough job caring, that's a huge job.
Patty:
Yeah, as a mum and as a carer, you know that the people that are going to assist you are going to have their training wheels. They're going to wobble for a little while and you have to learn not to be the martyr that always steps in and saves the day.
Kristina:
Yeah, for sure.
Patty:
I think you said it once when we were chatting. You said, “I don't want to be superwoman, I want to be a normal woman.”
Kristina:
Exactly. I think that we put this, I don't know, there's something that we feel like we need to put this ‘cape’ on, or we need to have this medal, and there's just too much pressure to be a certain way. I see all this Instagramming, you know, perfect pantries and things, and I'm like, “why? Why do we want to do that? Let's just get through life and enjoy life.” I mean, not in a frugal way, but in a simple way.
Patty:
Simple doesn't have to be frugal. It can still be joyful. Yeah, yeah. Most houses can use a tweak, such as arranging things differently. Don't you think?
Kristina:
Oh gosh, even the the most on the surface, minimal house could often use these little tweaks so that systems work better and sometimes it's just little things like putting the knives near the cutting board or putting the coffee cups near the tea and coffee.
People go, “What do you mean?” And I'm like, “Well, if you've got one less step, just one less step.”
With some of my clients, we've done things like taken doors off wardrobes and cupboards because of that extra effort of opening a door. It was too much for them to get things put away, and that's implementing things like a Lazy Susan, so it's easy to turn around or something simple to find, and it's only a little thing.
A little $5 item from Kmart here, or a removing a door there and all of a sudden it's lightened the load.
Patty:
I get that and you work a lot with neurodivergent communities, don't you?
Kristina:
Ohh yeah, we love our ADHD kind of clients in particular.
One of my staff has got ADHD and she can't organise her own house some days, but she's great doing everybody else's, so and I think that's recognising that people who think differently, it's not wrong, it's just we've got to make it work for them rather than them fit into a world that’s not meant for them.
Patty:
Especially because there's no one way that works for two people that have the same specialty in their neurodivergence.
Kristina:
Exactly, exactly. I say to some of my neurodivergent clients, they're stars trying to fit into a square world.
And I want to like, let them be stars instead, and stop trying to try and take those edges off them.
Patty:
I like that you said stars and not circles.
Kristina:
Stars because of the way their brains work. I mean, I think about my own kids like the way they think, it's just amazing and sometimes (I mean all the time), I'm learning from them, how to think differently about how to create spaces and think look at things. I mean the best game of all is when you get to do a fidget door at a client's house and you're like, yes, this is so much. Fun playing with all their toys.
Patty:
In this society, where it's easy to be a consumer where we have invisible currency such as the tap of our phones to pay for something or a credit card that pays our bills via direct debit automatically, online shopping sometimes has free shipping options. How can we be disciplined about what we bring into our home so that we don't need to keep regularly decluttering?
Kristina:
That's a really good question. I often say to clients to literally put a sticky note on their credit card that says what would Kristina do? So they think, before they buy.
Patty:
I think we might need some T shirts made up.
Kristina:
We might have some T-shirts or a band that you can flick on your wrist.
But in all honesty, it's maybe like when you're not looking for something and you find something that you want, maybe considering and thinking I'll go home, and if I still want, I'll come back tomorrow and offer that effort of going out again. You realise you don't really need that other bit or bob that you found.
When you're online shopping, it could be, you know, not having your credit card saved on the computer so you have to go to your wallet to pick it up. And that just that extra step makes you sometimes stop and consider.
Patty:
They're really good tips.
Kristina:
But the biggest one is if you can't find, or if you can't predict and see where it's actually gonna live, don't get it.
Because that's the thing. It comes in, and then it just sits on that counter on the dining table or in the corner of the room. And if you don't have a home for it like it's picked in your head, then don't get it because you're just then going to be kicking it around the room and. Cursing it and then and.
Patty:
Yeah, it's going it from post to pillar.
Kristina:
Exactly and clutter needs to be addressed like that. I think sometimes we look at it just as a thing and we need to address like what it’s done to us like the the different emotions that's brought out and like kind of un-churn that a little bit.
Like why did I get that? What was I feeling? Was I trying to fill a void or incite something?
Patty:
Yeah. What was I missing? How can I get it elsewhere?
Kristina:
Yeah, yeah, like, was I trying to be a cooler person? Was I trying to be a fitter person? Was I trying to be this, that or the other? Or did I just get it because I was feeling sad or happy or glad. And it's OK to have all those feelings, but just to kind of ponder sometimes and take stock and be more mindful because I think that's why we're in half the bother we're in. We're not mindful when we buy.
Patty:
You're right. Yeah. I have a friend that uses a beautiful technique with her 2 little daughters who ask for things when they go out and she takes photographs, and she calls it a ‘wish list’ and has a specific designated album on ,her phone of their photos and she says, “you can choose what your next birthday or Christmas or Easter present is going to be from your wish list.”
Kristina:
I love that idea. When you start young, getting kids to realise just because it's only $5, it doesn't mean you have to have it. And we can get so much more for our money than we used to do when we were kids. But it doesn't mean they should get it every single time.
Patty:
Speaking of invisible things that aren't tangible, do you have any tips on how we can manage our emails, and maybe this is 2 questions, and how we can store our photos so that our smartphones don't have 23,567 pics? Not that I'm outing myself or anything. 😊
Kristina:
Look, I think there's the digital clutter is just as much needs to be addressed as the physical clutter. So I do little tasks like, while I'm watching TV, maybe I'll go through and edit duplicate photos or. I'll you know, emails and stuff. You can you can actually sort your emails by the sender rather than by the date, so you can do a bulk batch of discarding them if they're all from the same company that's asking you to buy something.
Patty:
Or maybe have a number that's OK and sustainable, like 50 emails a week. Keep it at that. Anything over that is just a tell for you, or is just showing you that you're a little bit too busy and that you need to set some time aside.
Kristina:
Yeah. And it's actually like booking that time in. I think a lot of people will forget they know they need to clean their house, and they know they need to do shopping and that, but they don't actually schedule time to declutter.
Patty:
Yeah, digitally or physically.
Kristina:
Yes! And it actually takes time. You have to lock in some time whether it's doing your wardrobe, or your kitchen or your bathroom. They need time, and digital decluttering is just the same.
So, it's doing it in a kind of a fun way, as I said, like while watching TV or making a game of it, like how many can I do in 10 minutes, so we've tricked the brain into thinking it's fun. Then we'll want to do it again.
Patty:
Yes, yes. Yes, exactly. And where should we store our pictures?
Kristina:
That's a really good question. Again, I'm all about...
I mean, I do have online and cloud photos of course, like everybody else, but I think once again, it’s about organising them into folders. It might be making them into those photo books so you can physically see them, but the reality is, we take so many photos that are unimportant.
Like, I used to take photos of where my car was parked, so I wouldn’t forget where it was. Sometimes these photos are reference pictures, and we don't need to keep them, but it takes time to go through and it's just a lot in that time.
Patty:
Yeah, you're right.
Kristina:
Yeah. And again, I think it's, if you're willing to spend the money to store them, like to get your extra storage, you know, and whatever your device is, then it's like acknowledging “this is important to me, and I'm willing to spend the money on it.”
Patty:
Yeah. True. One of our clients at Carer Gateway shared that her children had volunteered to help her declutter, but she had declined and stated that she didn't want to do it, unless she received some psychological support, because she knew that she would only start hoarding again once they decluttered everything and that she'd be upset with them.
How can our carers support themselves or their loved ones when it comes to hoarding or even squalor, which I know is something different and I know you know a lot about this.
Kristina:
Yeah. Look, I'm first of all congratulating that woman for standing up for her position and saying “no, I want to do this properly”. And doing those mass clean outs may seem like the right idea, but they're often so much more trauma inducing. And then it just, yeah, exactly. Makes them bring more stuff in because they've got to feel that sad feeling they're feeling. When it comes to dealing with someone with something like hoarding or squalor, it really is about a team effort, and about coming up with an agreed plan and things like that.
Patty:
And not a rush plan either, because hoarding is actually in the DSM 5. It's a psychological issue. So many of our carers may not know that necessarily.
Kristina:
Right, it is a psychological issue and it's one that needs to be treated lightly, because it usually stems from trauma, so if you're really hoarding, as I said, it's only going to exacerbate, and it needs support. Not just from whoever's going to be cleaning or doing that side of it, but they need the mental health support.
It's also making sure that when whoever's coming in is not emotional and that there's a set of ground rules and we're looking at the the safety rather than just the look. We're looking at whether that's healthy for them and we're looking at the ease of the space and whether they can function. And I think a lot of people want just aesthetics. They're like, let's just clear it out because it looks tacky, but we need to be thinking about that the person, the human behind that stuff.
Patty:
Because it's such a deep issue, isn't it? And you mentioned it earlier when you said you do a lot of talk therapy going through your clutter cause there's always a story associated many stories.
Kritina:
It's huge.
Patty:
Yeah, there's something healing about listening to that story and being heard. Being validated. Being seen.
Kristina:
And just them knowing or sometimes explaining why they made these choices because it may look crazy to someone else, why they've done them. But they often have really quite legitimate reasons why they've done things. And then it kind of got away from them, because of sickness or this or that and its they just need validation as to why they kept them.
With family, they're too close. They just wanna, you know, yell at them and they get impatient. So, my game is a very, very patient game. I mean, I've been working with clients for some clients for like 6 years. We see them weekly. And you might think, how can you not be decluttered yet? And it's because it's a very slow process and sometimes as fast as we clear it out, they can bring things back in, just as fast.
Patty:
Hmm. Yeah. OK.
Kristina:
Yeah, it's a tough game.
Speaker 1
Yeah. And it's important not to take anything away too soon, otherwise you'll abuse the trust, won’t you?
Kristina:
Yeah, exactly. You need to have, as I said, have a set of rules, a set of agreements, and if you break that, if you break that trust, then it's gonna take a long time before they're gonna let someone come back in.
Patty:
So, for example, 3 things that could be a priority that you could agree on are, safety, health and ease of use, such as a clear thoroughfare so you don’t fall over.
Kristina:
Yeah, exactly. Safety and health. Make sure the stairs are clear. Make sure that the hot plates are clear. Make sure that the doors are accessible for an emergency exit. Yes, making sure that the there's a clear enough pathway if the ambulance people need to come in, things like that.
Patty:
Yeah, I bet it can take up to five or six sessions to even start to declutter sometimes.
Kristina:
Ohh it can take a long time just to build that trust and just having conversations. I mean, people ask, “Ohh how long will it take you to clear this room?” And I say in a 3hour session I could do a shoe box with some clients, and I could fill a skip in with others.
Patty:
Yes, that's important to distinguish.
Kristina:
It's very important and as we've been saying, there's no one way to do anything. There's no one way to organise. There are no two clients ever alike, even if their story sounds alike.
Patty:
Before I go into some rapid fire wrap up question with you, do you have any inspirational stories that you can share with us, where some of your carers and clients have gone from being really overwhelmed to becoming independently organised?
Kristina:
Ohh my goodness. I have so many beautiful clients, but I think my favourite is one that we worked with, maybe the end of last year. We got to a beautiful moment, so we were working with this elderly man who had basically been isolated for 15 years, no one had come into his space, and it was cluttered like a very narrow passageway. The clutter was higher than my head. I'm 5’3”
Patty:
So was it hoarding or it had it gone into squalor mode?
Kristina:
I think it was definitely a hoarding issue. It was getting borderline squalor like there was definitely. cockroaches and things happening, and he was quite unkempt, so it like I think even just bathing and things were difficult because it was so congested.
And we worked with him quite slowly at the beginning and just removing the obvious kind of rubbish and things and helping him to declutter things. And he had mountains of everything. Anyway, the goal was because this poor man had never even had a bed, there was no room for a bed. He'd been sleeping on a couch for the last 15 years, and he'd actually worn the couch out. There was only a skeleton of a couch. He'd just literally worn the cushions out. So, we were able to clear enough of the room and we got him a bed that we decluttered from one client. We got him new linen and like a new doona cover.
Patty:
One person's trash is another person's treasure.
Kristina:
Exactly. And we got him a new couch. And again, decluttered from another client. And we got it all delivered. We set it up and this man he lay out on that bed, kind of like kid, there was a big smile on this old man’s face. It was just adorable as he could actually stretch his full length, because he was probably like 6-4 and he'd had to squish all that time.
And then it was something beautiful. We sort of said, “oh, well, now you have this beautiful bedroom”, and you've got, I mean, the whole bedroom wasn't done, but we had a bed for him at least. And I said, how about we go get a haircut because he was looking quite disheveled.
And his shoulders, everything about him just changed. And then because we were able to declutter, we could get a fridge into his kitchen. He could get meals delivered because he wasn't eating properly and it was all these little tiny changes that made into this big thing, which this man is finally getting proper sleep. He's finally getting proper food and he could invite someone in, but he could open himself up to people again, which was just.
I cried. I cried that day it was a beautiful day.
Patty:
That says a lot about how much he trusted you. If he hadn't let anybody else in for. 15 years. That says a lot.
Kristina:
Yeah, well, it took him a while to have a lot of girls in his house. I’ll tell you that and sometimes we have we have a bit of a code word that we use if they're getting a little overwhelmed, they call “pineapple”. It means they're still sweet on the inside, but they're getting a little prickly. And he called pineapple many times, but we got there. We got there.
Patty:
Oh, that's a beautiful story. All right, now it's time for me to ask you questions. OK? Alright. Would you rather have more time or have more money?
Kristina:
More time for sure.
Patty:
You’d still make more money, wouldn't you?
Kristina:
Yes, exactly.
Patty:
What would be your secret spy name?
Kristina:
Ooh. Chatty Cathy, although that's not really secret, but...
Patty:
That would be quite obvious. OK, if a movie was made of your life, what genre would it be? Eg. Romantic comedy, drama, action, etcetera?
Kristina:
I think it'd be an action, but with some drama in there for sure, and probably a bit of comedy.
Patty:
Ohh, there'd definitely be comedy.
Kristina:
Yeah, probably some comedy. I think it would be all seasons one. Yeah, maybe a musical as well.
Patty:
Of course, of course, our listeners don't know that you actually sing, hence where the diva came from initially.
Kristina:
Exactly. Exactly. No. I was a diva by nature, so I thought I might as well, make it my business name.
Patty:
I love it. Is there a piece of clothing you now regret wearing?
Kristina:
I want to say fluoro anything, fluoro, that kind of really cheap polyester, dry fluoro stuff that was around in the 80s, but I don't know. I think maybe bubble skirts as well. They were pretty horrendous. They did nothing for us, and they have not come back. Frilled skirts did, but bubble skirts did not.
Patty:
There might be a reason for that.. Do you have any other hidden talents in addition to being able to fold fitted sheets and singing?
Kristina:
I used to belly dance for 6 years and I had a business called Gina the Genie, where I did kid’s birthday parties with a wig and big hair and pants. And I did belly dancing routines with the kids.
Patty:
I love the alliteration.
Kristina:
Yeah, I love alliteration. So that was a I don't know so much as a hidden talent, but a lot of people like from more recently don't know anything about it, because it's been a while. But it was super fun.
Patty:
That's beautiful! And Kristina's website is, declutteringdiva.com.au
We'll also have that in the show notes. It has a list of where all your decluttered things can go outside of the op shop, as well as 99 things to do while the kettle boils to help keep your home tidy and organised.
Until we catch up again, be well and take good care of yourself. I certainly hope you've enjoyed this podcast. If you did, giving us a 5 star rating certainly helps us get into the right listening years till next time.
Til next time, take care everybody.
Billy:
If you are caring for a relative or a friend who has a disability, a mental health condition, a life limiting health or medical condition.
Or they are frail because they're getting older. Please contact us at Carer Gateway on 1800 422 737, or look us up on www.carergateway.gov.au
And if you are a carer, you're allowed to take time to look after yourself. You are just as important as the person you take care of.