Alex Li chats about caring for his loved one who is navigating complex trauma, depression and suicidality. He shares how important it is to be mindful of language and connected to community, as well as the courses that have assisted him in his caring role. GUEST: Alex Li - https://www.mhfa.com.au/ https://livingworks.com.au/ https://www.sane.org/ SOCIAL MEDIA: Follow The Benevolent Society on Instagram Follow Carer Gateway on Facebook Follow The Benevolent Society on Facebook CREDITS: Host – Patty Kikos Producers – Patty Kikos and John Hresc Sound Engineer – John Hresc GET IN TOUCH: Carer Gateway is proud to offer emotional and practical services and support for carers with the aim of making your life easier. You can call us on 1800 422 737 to find out more about peer support groups, counselling, coaching, online skills courses, tailored support packages, emergency respite, other government supports, as well as tips and information, or visit our online home at www.carergateway.gov.au ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: The Benevolent Society acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Alex Li chats about caring for his loved one who is navigating complex trauma, depression and suicidality. He shares how important it is to be mindful of language and connected to community, as well as the courses that have assisted him in his caring role.
GUEST:
Alex Li - https://www.mhfa.com.au/https://livingworks.com.au/https://www.sane.org/
SOCIAL MEDIA:
Follow The Benevolent Society on Instagram
Follow Carer Gateway on Facebook
Follow The Benevolent Society on Facebook
CREDITS:
Host – Patty Kikos
Producers – Patty Kikos and John Hresc
Sound Engineer – John Hresc
GET IN TOUCH:
Carer Gateway is proud to offer emotional and practical services and support for carers with the aim of making your life easier.
You can call us on 1800 422 737 to find out more about peer support groups, counselling, coaching, online skills courses, tailored support packages, emergency respite, other government supports, as well as tips and information, or visit our online home at www.carergateway.gov.au
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS:
The Benevolent Society acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Alex
For quite a long time; I felt a very deep sense of isolation. I felt very responsible, like I felt I had to do everything, you know, and don't get me wrong. Being a carer, I find it rewarding to be able to do something so important for someone that I love in my life. But it is something that go eat. It's a long term thing though. It has to be sustainable. It's no use if you being a carer, you do it, give it 120% for a couple of years and then you burn out when the person might need you for much longer time than that.
So, I'm just thinking back to what I said earlier about doing things with people rather than doing things to people, and that extends to having a relationship with other carers out there as well because there is a whole community of them where. People have ideas, other resources that they might have, so it's good to meet them and exchange ideas and information.
Billy:
From the Benevolent Society, we welcome you to the Carer Gateway podcast with your host Patty Kikos.
Carer Gateway is the Australian Government’s national hub and provides reliable services, support and advice especially for carers.
This is where we share interviews with guests that have specialized knowledge that will help support carers to look after their emotional, mental and physical well-being.
We are recording on Aboriginal country, on lands which were never ceded. We acknowledge the traditional custodians and cultural knowledge holders of these lands and waters. We pay our respects to Aboriginal elders, past and present.
Always was, always will be.
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Patty
My beautiful carers and all our fabulous listeners who support us each month, hello and WELCOME!!
In a few moments, I’m going to introduce you to Alex Li. A husband, son, small business jack-of-all-trades – and a man with a lived experience as a carer.
But before we begin, I really need to let you know of a TRIGGER WARNING. We will be discussing suicide – so if this topic is a little too close to the bone for you, and you’d prefer to sit this episode out – we totally understand.
Feel free to come back, when it’s a little less raw for you.
Alex has supported a loved one with experiences of chronic depression, suicidality, and complex trauma, for 20 years. His turning point came when he found the lived experience community – people with similar experiences, who are willing to ‘sit in the space’ and work together in navigating the complex world of caring. These days, Alex is driven to amplify families’ and carers’ voices, and advocate for ‘working with’ rather than ‘doing things to’ families.
Away from juggling multiple plates, Alex is an avid reader, hiker, as well as trying to ride bikes without getting swooped by magpies.
Alex you have a south east Asian background, as you were born in Hong Kong, and moved here when you were 11. Tell us about that time in your life?
Alex
Hey Patty. I came here when I was just 11 years old and it was a pretty intimidating and bewildering time in my life. And a lot of it comes down to multiple barriers like language as well as cultural, not understanding what's going on. And there's this kind of ever-present fear of being afraid as an outsider of, I guess, being dismissed being ignored or even taken advantage of.
Patty
Do you ever still feel dismissed?
Alex
Yes, I do. Well sometimes, I think it's because of that, that fear of being dismissed for my views for who I am. One of the manifestations is that I try to talk really fast and it's something that I had to unlearn, at times to slow myself down. And I certainly still feel sometimes that what I say, what I do doesn't quite matter as much.
Patty
So did you find yourself speaking really quickly because you wanted to make sure that you got everything out before you got interrupted perhaps?
Alex
That's exactly right. And it doesn't stop people from doing it sometimes. But yeah, like I said, it's a process of unlearning sometimes.
Patty
There's a fine line between interrupting, chronically, and this natural interjection which we have in conversation anyway, isn't it? I totally understand. Did you actually speak English when you emigrated?
Alex
I did, very limited. I mean when I was in Hong Kong, we did learn our ABC very basic conversations like cats, dogs, sandwich, eggs. Yeah, I can say those things, but mostly it's listening. That was the problem because where I was in Hong Kong, there weren't that many people speaking English. Everyone was speaking in Cantonese and in an environment where no one else is speaking English I could. But I don't get the chance to listen to it. Yeah, that was my issue.
Patty
And there's a fine line between knowing what certain words mean versus listening to someone who's a native speaker that speaks quite quickly, isn't it? So what was school like for you?
Alex
When I first came over, it was very challenging. Like I said, I had issues listening to English in a conversational sense, but also adjusting to socialising. I mean, interacting with people, knowing how people hear, interact and have conversations. So, there are these implicit cultural expectations. It feels like playing a game where I don't know the rules, but everybody else does. But it was like that for a number of years. Every day, yes.
Patty
What would you say was the main cultural difference?
Alex
I think. Just off the top of my head, I would say it's something like interacting with people and the teacher in class. For example, back in Hong Kong, my culture values listening and deference to the teacher so.
Patty
Deference to authority you mean?
Alex
That's exactly right. Yes.
Patty
And older people I bet.
Alex
Yeah, so we are encouraged to not express ourselves to just listen, absorb whatever authority figures are saying. Whereas here, there’s far more interaction and that is definitely something that took me a while to get used to.
Patty
So from a non-English speaking person, you then went on to university. What did you end up studying?
Alex
Well I ended up doing my undergraduate in psychology and after that I worked for a couple of years. Because, you know, I needed money to survive..
Patty
Yeah, that old chestnut.
Alex
Yeah, that's right. And afterwards, after a couple of years, I got an opportunity to return to university to do some research work, which culminated in me somehow doing a PhD dissertation out of it in the in the school of Marketing actually.
Patty
Oh my goodness. So, from being a fluent Cantonese speaker, emigrating to a different country and then doing a PhD in that country's language? Wow.
Alex
I guess yeah, I guess it's an interesting experience, yeah.
Patty
You mentioned that you're married. Where did you meet your wife?
Alex
I met my wife back in the mid 2000s. We met at a party.
Patty
So, no dating apps back then? Remember those days?
Alex
That's right. No dating apps, no social media. We met at a party, you know, face to face, human interaction.
Patty
I remember those days.
Alex
And that's right. I struggle to remember that.
Patty
Have you been together for long?
Alex
Yes, we've been together for 20 years. We're very fortunate to spend such a long time together.
Patty
That's a blessing. Now you have managed to complete a PhD. You worked part time when you got married. And if that wasn't quite enough. Alex, I know that you've also been a carer for another close family member for a while. How long has it been?
Alex
Yeah, it's about 20 odd years as well and that's actually, what you're asking, that is a really interesting question. For a lot of that time, I never thought of myself as being a carer.
Patty
Is that because the vernacular back then was so different, and now it's a word that's a little bit more accepted and shared in society.
Alex
I think so, but also I think there's also a part of me that didn't understand that. Ohh I thought that I'm just their loved one. I'm just someone in their life who does things for them, for example, setting appointments, calling people, talking to services, et cetera. So I just thought, ohh yeah, that's just what a loved one does.
Patty
It’s what family does, right?
Alex
Exactly. Yeah. So, I really never thought about myself as a carer until more recent years, and actually my loved one actually prefers the term support person, rather than being a carer.
Patty
Let’s unpack that a little bit.
Alex
Yeah, I think the way I think of it is, the term carer implies a lack of independence. When you say that someone is someone else's career, it feels like you're doing things to the person rather than with the person.
Patty
What about for the person?
Alex
Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think doing things for a person also implies that the other person hasn't got or is lacking a sense of agency. And whereas to say that I'm supporting someone, it feels more like a certain degree of humanity. I guess struggling in life one way or another, we all need help sometimes. And we do have our own agency as well.
Patty
Yeah, it's a great point. Not all loved ones or people that are cared for or cared recipients necessarily want to be referred to as such, and don't necessarily want the person that's helping them to be their carer officially.
It's such a great point that you make. I mean language is very important, isn't it? A dear friend of mine actually challenged the language in the medical system recently when her pregnancy was referred to as a ‘geriatric pregnancy’ simply because of her age.
She found it very offensive, and she asked the doctors and the nurses to refrain from using that term as she found it really disrespectful. And they all happily obliged and honored her wishes. Now I know that language is important to you as a bilingual person, as you've also shared with me that there's no word in Chinese for ‘lived experience’ or ‘peer workers’. Isn't that right?
Alex
Yeah, that's my understanding of it. And that's actually a lovely story that you shared there and I think it goes really well to illustrate the importance of language being used in an inclusive manner so that people don't feel like they are incapacitated or having someone else doing things for them or to them, and it reinforces the idea that the person themselves is the is the most important part of the conversation.
Patty
Yeah, because if you all agree on the terms, you're all going to be on the same page in reference to how the conversation is going to flow, even if you disagree with certain elements. Yeah, that's a great point. What are some factors of mental health that your loved one experiences?
Alex
Yeah, my loved one she’s experienced things like chronic depression and suicidality as well as years of complex trauma.
Patty
That's quite a few strains of mental health that you're familiar with. Let's unpack them separately if you don't mind. Can you share how a support person or a carer can help a loved one that is navigating suicidality. I've started with the complex one first.
Alex
Sure thing. Yeah, I gotta say that I didn't used to deal very well with that. I used to panic when my person experienced or expresses suicidality. I used to go, “I gotta call services, gotta call the hospital, I gotta take you to XYZ places..”
Patty
Which is a natural initial response, isn't it?
Alex
That's right, trying to be overly solution focused. Whereas these days I understand that suicidality is a very complex concept. You know it's not about the person wanting to seek attention, or being manipulative as some people out there might say, but rather they’re in a significant amount of psychological pain and they want that gone basically.
Patty
What have you found to be most helpful?
Alex
I found that being calm and being present to be the most important thing. I mean to be able to sit there in the discomfort. I mean, it isn't comfortable to sit there with the person who has expressed suicidality and I think it is something that society has really underrated.
Patty
So you've made a really great point to sit not just in your own discomfort, but their discomfort. Wow, yeah.
Alex
Yeah, that's right. And also, the other thing that I could think of is to learn more about suicide prevention. So, you are equipped to have that difficult conversation if someone were to express suicidality or a wish to suicide to you, you can have that difficult conversation and it's a useful skill to have with anybody, not just with family members as well.
Patty
Speaking of a difficult conversation has your loved one actually attempted to?
Alex
Yes, and those were pretty dark times and a couple of times that happened. It was like deep in the middle of the night at 2 or 3am while I was sleeping.
Patty
Ohh that's traumatic for you as well, isn't it?
Alex
It's rough, it's rough. I mean, I can't be awake 24/7. It's not a sustainable way to live.
Patty
Which is also an important point. That's not sustainable.
Alex
That's it yeah. And it has caused me anxiety in the past. I mean, even thinking about it now, it's brought back some of those feelings and. Yeah. And I'm just thinking about, I mean, I try to deal with it through looking or try to look for warning signs before those things happen and try to make my relationship with my person safe over a lot over a long period of time.
Patty
Is there a particular training that you would recommend?
Alex
I would definitely recommend Suicide Prevention Training, like Mental Health First Aid and ASIST, which is short for applied suicide intervention skills training. They are both 2-day courses and they are both very strong on how to have that difficult conversation and how to spot those warning signs.
Patty
Hmm, cause most of us that haven't done that training will err on the side of caution and almost walk on eggshells and we won't know that it's important to ask direct questions such as “Do you intend to commit suicide? Do you have any plans in place?”
Alex
That's right.
Patty
Yeah, I highly recommend those trainings as well. Pivoting a little bit to complex trauma now as we know and we've discussed on the show a few times, this can show up for someone that has experienced it in a myriad of ways. Can you share a few of them and how we can best support our loved ones?
Alex
The term implies complex. It is complex and my understanding of it is that it is many number of relatively small events that come up in a person's life throughout. But it happens throughout the course of many years and in later years it comes out as distressing sensations.
Patty
So I'll just interject and say there are three types of trauma. There's acute, chronic or complex. So acute trauma results from a single incident. Chronic trauma can be repeated and prolonged, such as domestic violence or repeated abuse. And complex trauma is exposure to varied and multiple traumatic events. Often of an invasive and interpersonal nature.
Alex
Yeah, that's a very good characterization of it. Very fair way to summarise it and there's starting to be a bit written about complex trauma, but I feel that it's still not very well understood by society at large.
Patty
And that's a very good point, Alex. And you're right, it shows up in a lot of different ways. How does it show up specifically for your loved one? How do they express it?
Alex
I would say the first thing I can think of is dissociation. That is, by shutting down like she would stop talking. Basically sit and not make eye contact.
Patty
Seemingly out of the blue.
Alex
Yeah, I mean, it can happen quite quickly. It could be one moment the conversation goes in a particular way and then she would start not responding, not looking back at you. And that could last a couple of hours. And the other thing that I can think of is anger and it comes out as bursts of rage and outbursts. Which is never to me. It's never to me personally, but nevertheless it does make it a difficult space to be in.
Patty
Because there's a very unpredictable aspect to it, isn't there?
Alex
That's right, exactly.
Patty
So, are you saying that it's not just anger, but it's also displaced anger?
Alex
I would absolutely say so. Like I said, it's not anger towards me personally or not even about anything specific in the environment, but it is something that comes from something in the past yeah.
Patty
Yeah. And when we feel safe with someone, it's almost like a secure attachment. We know that we can express that anger, that we’re expressing in a different situation.
Alex
Makes a lot of sense.
Patty
What has been most useful for you as a carer when supporting someone who is navigating their trauma?
Alex
I think the absolute number one thing I would say is validation. It is far better than just going to them and offering solution after solution. I mean I used to do that.
Patty
You mentioned you used to do that.
Alex
Yeah, I was used to being a very solution focused person. So, when my person feels that way, I would be like “ohh yeah, let's do this, let's do that”. But rather, I've learned that they just want me or loved ones to sit with them in that discomfort. I mean when I say validation, it doesn't mean that I have to say or do anything that violates my own personal beliefs. I mean, the person's feelings are always valid. You can always validate how they're feeling even by saying I can see that you feel very upset. That’s validation.
Patty
Yeah. And it sounds like a really big piece of that is non judgement.
Alex
That's exactly right. Yeah. True. Not just the situation, but rather look at it with a lot of curiosity and humility. When I say curiosity, I mean just trying to understand or even directly ask what do you actually need or what can I do to make this situation better?
Patty
As opposed to imposing your interpretation of what they might need.
Alex
Exactly. That's exactly right. And that leads on to my point about humility as well. To admit that I don't always know what's best. I mean, they are the ones who have lived their lives. They know what works best for themselves.
Patty
Such valid points. What are some great tips for our listeners to know when they are supporting a loved one with clinical depression?
Alex
I think one of the biggest points I can say is to get out of that problem solving mode that I was talking about before. I mean, I used to like, so I used to say to my person, “Let's go for a walk. Let's go and see a doctor. Let's go shopping, et cetera”, but rather it's a lot more important to try to build that relationship with them. And once again, it's about sitting in a space of this comfort, not just for myself, but for the person as well to trust that the person is the expert in their own life.
Patty
What would you say that your loved one has responded best to?
Alex
I think the best thing, or the thing that my person has responded best through is the fact that I respect her autonomy and capability to show respect, that you can do this. You are in charge of your own recovery. Which leades me to this term I came across, a tool called ‘strength-based model of recovery’. So, it focuses on what the person is good at rather than deficits, rather than saying ohh you're not good at this, you've got to fix this but instead we say, “You are good at something. Let's work on that”. So in a sense it’s a common experience to a lot of people in small business that I have known, and it reminds me a lot of being in a caring role. It's a bit like a Jack of all trades juggling many, many plates yeah.
Patty
Yeah. What's your ‘why’ about supporting carers that are in business for themselves?
Alex
I think carers who are also in business for themselves have a very unique challenge in the sense that there's no clocking off. I mean working in a small business, you don't get to finish up 9:00 to 5:00, Monday to Friday, you're going to be taking phone calls whenever, on weekends etcetera and there's just being in a constant state of not knowing what's coming up next and.
Patty
Yeah, there's a lot of uncertainty.
Alex
That's right, juggling so many roles, and to me, I found that my biggest challenge was that there isn't much time to work on the business, but rather constantly working in it. Because of this, all these uncertainties in juggling, yeah.
Patty
Which is hard. To expand it and make it more sustainable.
Alex
That's right.
Patty
I mean, I think you need to have a very robust nervous system when you're self-employed because money isn't always regular, and hours can sometimes be very unpredictable.
Alex
Absolutely. And that's why I'm keen to have this conversation with other small businesspeople who are also caring for people in their lives as well, and it is like what you said, they can't extend themselves, or develop themselves or the business because they are juggling. So they're two very important roles there.
Patty
Yeah, that's right. And I mean, just like I said, being self-employed means you need to have a very robust nervous system simply because of how unpredictable the nature of that role is. It's exactly the same for a carer. Tell us about the importance of making and keeping connections for carers.
Alex
It is so important. I mean for quite a long time; I felt a very deep sense of isolation. I felt very responsible, like I felt like I had to do everything you know and, don't get me wrong, being a carer, I find it rewarding to be able to do something so important for someone that I love in my life.
It's a long-term thing though. It has to be sustainable. It's no use if you're being a carer, you give it 120% for a couple of years and then you burn out when the person might need you for a much longer time than that.
I'm just thinking back to what I said earlier about doing things with people rather than doing things to people, and that extends to having a relationship with other carers out there as well because there is a whole community of them where people have ideas, other resources that they might have, so it's good to meet them and exchange ideas and information, I think.
Patty
Yeah, I think they're great points, Alex. Everything that you've said today has been so helpful for all of our carers and our listeners to hear. It seems very fitting that we need to reward you with some rapid fire wrap up questions. What do you think?
Alex
Love it. Let's do that.
Patty
What's your best cost of living hack?
Alex
I love slow cookers. I mean in the last couple of months, I actually dug up my old slow cooker during the last days of winter and the best thing about it is it lasts for several days, so there would be days where you don't have to think about dinner and you can put it on whenever you like. Just flick it on to low cook for several hours, which is fantastic. Therefore, if you need flexible timing.
Patty
Especially when dinner isn't always at a set time.
Alex
That's exactly right. And the whole house smells pretty good as well.
Patty
Yes, what a bonus. Alright, pretend it's Shark Tank. What's an invention that needs to be invented?
Alex
I don't think any Shark Tank has even tried a time machine. That's pretty inconceivable, but I'm going to say time travel. So I can go back to my past and tell past Alex to stop offering solutions. You know, stop with that solution focus and in a way, it's a kind of grace made, that I wish I knew about that a lot sooner.
Patty
But your lived experience is what teaches other carers not to do it as well.
Alex
That's quite true, yes.
Patty
Yeah. How close, and this is an important question.. How close do you need to be to someone to ask them to pick you up from the airport?
Alex
Yeah, I would say that it would have to be very close if it's my own airport and if it's from Sydney, I would expect that the person would be pretty close to me. But on the other hand, if I'm going to a different airport, especially if I'm going there to see the person, I would almost be disappointed if they don't come and pick me up, good question, you know.
Patty
Yeah, fair points. Fair points. Do you still speak Cantonese? And if you do, how good is it from a scale of 1 – 10?
Alex
Ohh absolutely. I still do speak Cantonese, especially with my parents who are still here. Hmm, I from scale of 1 to 10 I would say a solid 8 unless it's something really technical like relating to the government I would have issues with that. But general colloquial, yeah I can still do that
Patty
That's good. Complex political terms? Maybe not so much
Alex
Pretty much that's right.
Patty
My last question, what's something that recently made you smile.
Alex
Ohh that's a good one. First cup of coffee in the morning. It's always, always good. It works every time. Need that to wake me up.
Patty
Thank you, Alex. Thanks for coming along.
Alex
Thank you very much, Patty.
Patty
Caring for someone with a mental illness can be challenging and it’s OK to feel a range of emotions. As Alex shared, looking after yourself will help you to stay well so that you’re able to care for them.
Learning about your loved one’s mental health condition can also help you support them. A mental health safety plan may help you and your loved one know what to do in a crisis. There are many support services available for mental health carers.
In addition to calling the Carer Gateway, if you’d like to contact an organisation that specialises in mental health concerns, you can reach out to SANE, which is for people with recurring, persistent or complex mental health issues and trauma, and for their families, friends and communities.
We’ll be sure to share their website in the show notes. As always, if this episode has touched your heart, leaving us a 5 star review and subscribing to our podcast will help our interviews get to the people that need to hear them the most until we cross paths again, go well and travel lightly.
Billy:
If you are caring for a relative or a friend who has a disability, a mental health condition, a life limiting health or medical condition.
Or they are frail because they're getting older. Please contact us at Carer Gateway on 1800 422 737, or look us up on www.carergateway.gov.au
And if you are a carer, you're allowed to take time to look after yourself. You are just as important as the person you take care of.